03-25-2013, 12:58 PM | #67 | |
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Ugh..I feel like a broken record. In case this is not abundantly clear to everyone. The EXACT SAME TUNE IS ON PP PERFORMANCE, MANHART, SCHNITZER and PERFORMING IMPORTS.-No difference whatsoever. Comes from the same place. |
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03-25-2013, 01:03 PM | #68 | |
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03-25-2013, 01:25 PM | #69 | |
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Perhaps I am confused, but aren't you saying here they are not identical? Or do you mean they are not selling outside their own territory? But that is besides the point I am trying to make. I will ask you again: You are defending PI with their marvellous tune with a good butt dyno feel. I am saying that Manhart so far is the only company that gives you what you pay for. Tell me what US buyers will get when they give PI their hard earned cash? |
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03-25-2013, 02:06 PM | #70 | |
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03-25-2013, 02:25 PM | #71 |
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Ok we got that cleared up in spite of you feeling like a broken record. However, I feel like one too, because you never responded to my remark about PI not backing up their or your "claim" (yet).
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03-25-2013, 03:08 PM | #72 | |
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All I have said is that I have the tune, downpipes and an exhaust on my car and it is fast. I even specifically said that I have no idea whether I got 30,40,50-100+ hp and I didn't care. I am happy with the car. It is faster than stock. Gooood enough for me. I don't even know what their "claim" is that you re talking about. All I know is that the tunes are the same. Look on the Noelle Motors site. This is the same tune. It has specs. You can call them too. This is why I said people should do their own due diligence-here is your opportunity. Also curious why you even care. You are not even in the US. What possible benefit does this even have to you? You can go to Manhart and get it all and rest easy. |
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03-25-2013, 03:27 PM | #73 |
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Well you are so upset about people wanting to dyno an M5 that you spent many hours on explaining and repeating it can't be done. I am getting the Manhart tune stage 4 installed next week, so I am all set. Not only will I write, just like you, how wonderful it is, I am going to back it up with proof and useful information for others. Why else would I be on this board? You keep saying the tunes are identical, so it is interesting to see if they actually are in the real world. With the M5 E60 USA and Europe had different softwares.
But this board is international and if you are so enthusiastic about the PI tune, then it is interesting to me as a car lover as I am sure others are about the power it produces. It is a bit weird that you are kind of saying because I am on another continent that I should keep quiet. ps. I am happy that you are so happy, I just wished there was more info. |
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03-25-2013, 04:12 PM | #74 | |
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03-25-2013, 04:15 PM | #75 | |
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I also did not say ""It can't be done at all?" I said that it cannot be done here on US cars because we cannot do the true 1:1 measure (5th gear) needed because of our speed limiter. This is factual. Ask Manhart. They will agree. They CAN and DO do it. They have Euro cars and a higher limiter-we don't. I also stated very specifically that the Dyno operators in the US are doing things not in line with the Dyno specifications BMW provides. This is also factual. This can be read in the manual. I am not "upset". I never said that. I may have been redundant and a little firm but not upset. Silly opinions on a forum do not make me upset. I do think people are silly to think they know better than the people who build the cars. Look at this entire thread. If you read it with an open mind and no emotion or opinion it is pretty comical to watch how people hear that little voice in their head yapping a thousand miles an hour like it does all day and then they fire off comments based upon "meanings" that they completely make up. None of it is real. Kinda like if I ran up to you and pushed you tumbling backwards to the ground. You might create the meaning in your head that I was trying to assault you when in reality I may have just risked my own life to save you from being hit by an oncoming car. Meanings are just distinctions we make and we all make them differently. So don't take my comments about Manhart or anyone else as insults or as arguments. I am stating things that have been told to me by everyone I referenced above AND by Manhart as well. I am not in any competition with you or anyone else to "be right"-btw..that is usually the source of arguments like this-people get very righteous and will argue until they are blue in the face to be right (as you can see, I have done it on here too but I know to throw it right out the window and move on.) "Manhart, as I have said repeatedly, is highly reputable and I would believe what they tell you 100%. Frankly, if I were in Europe Manhart would be the place that I would get my car tuned. They are experts and I know where they get their stuff so I know it is the best. You can verify every ounce of this with them. As far as all of this "stuff" we are talking about, when you strip away all of the emotion and bs it seems we actually are in agreement. I hope and know your car will turn out brilliantly! Very much looking forward to hearing the results! Incidentally, I did call and have a conversation with VBOX about 30 mins ago for kicks. It seems like an exercise in futility to buy a box and log my car because I have wheel spin and I cannot launch well. The car with MDM on spins off the line and continues to skip through 1st gear, spins hard on the shift to 2nd (sometimes kicking out the rear end), skips throughout the whole gear and then continues skip through 3rd (at times kicks as well on the shift to 3rd) even with brand new Michelin SS in 305s on the rear. Solutions might be to invest in race tires or to invest in some SERIOUS logging equip they sell and make loads of adjustments to get some sort of almost accurate figure. Honestly, it is not going to happen to prove something that I don't care about proving. After all, I have made no claims to even prove other than it is faster than stock, which logic would tell anyone that a car with performance cats alone will be faster. Let me know the solution that you come up with to accurately measure. If it is not a pain in the butt to do and a huge expense for silliness then I just may do it. I am just not all that hung up on 10ths of a second. |
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03-25-2013, 04:37 PM | #76 |
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I can tell you more. We are totally in agreement. I will have the car on the dyno before and after and have v-box results as well. Of course I could keep the info to myself, but I'd rather share it on this board, so others can make proper decisions. There must be a reason why you share your experience. I was just hoping you would provide some actual data. Manhart uses a vbox and yes they also had wheel spin, so the car could be even faster than what they measure.
Oh and yes I created that meaning based on my perception of what you are saying. It is a common problem with written text, and interpretation by an individual who speaks English as a second language. I feel that you created the feelin that I am against you, which is also not true |
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03-25-2013, 05:19 PM | #77 | |
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Man, I am totally clueless on the VBOX and calculating all the stuff. I truly cannot launch it. I am guessing here but I bet they do a pretty sick tire setup. My results would be all over the place. It is like a car just siting there, then throwing you back then spinning again. And that is in D3. In S3 forget it. I really need to learn to drive it. btw..that whole "meaning" thing is an issue with EVERYONE not just English as a second language. |
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03-25-2013, 11:05 PM | #78 |
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Well, I guess we now will have a base tune plus a couple of extras thrown for comparison. I am sure you will be happy with your tune and the power adder extras, M'Bitious.
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03-26-2013, 11:12 AM | #79 |
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Wow! I was gone all weekend, this post blew up.
I just got done reading the whole thing. So in summation, here's what appears to be the positions taken: 1. Performing Imports Tune: Know one knows if the tune by itself actually makes the 80hp claimed. 2. ColdList is unwilling to provide dyno numbers, vbox data, YouTube video races, or 1/4 miles drag time slips due to his own personal ideological reasons (which is his right, it is his car after all, and in fact he is not a representative of the company, just a personal friend of the owner). 3. It's been alluded to but not fact that a combination of all three (downpipes, tune, exhaust from Performing Imports) is responsible for an approximate increase in horsepower of 80hp to the crank and that the tune by itself does not actually produce the claimed 80hp increase as was advertised. 4. Other people who are willing to get the Performing Imports Tune have stated that they will dyno the car before and after the tune is installed. 5. Ron and his company Performing Imports are still unwilling to provide data as to the exact performance gains of any of their products by evidence provided through dynograph charts, vbox data results, or 1/4 mile drag strip time slips. 6. The discussion between the Manhart Tune and the Performing Imports tune is interesting. There still appears to be no concrete evidence that both tunes from both companies are the exact same product. 7. Ron is still willing to come out to Arizona and provide customers with his tune. 8. Dynograph results are only good for Naturally Aspirated Engines and are completely irrelevant for turbo car engines, especially the F10 M5's. 9. The fact that I actually talked with several tuning companies last week about the BMW Development Software that they actually have in their possession seems to be an irrelevant point and merits no validity despite their long standing reputations. 10. An F10 M5 with the Performing Imports Tune, Downpipes, and Exhaust is unable to provide any vbox data due to wheelspin. This includes completely losing traction in a 60-130mph run. New Info: I spoke with Roman from ESS face to face this past weekend while at the Targa Trophy event in San Diego. He has stated that ESS will have a tune hopefully this summer and will definitely make gains of over 30hp to the crank. They are developing their own software in house and are not using the BMW Development Software. They will also back up their tune with dynograph charts. Personal Opinion: I don't have a doubt in my mind that Ron's personal M5 and ColdList's M5 are both very fast M5's, but how much faster nobody knows. I am hoping that someone from SoCal does get the Performing Imports Tune and I am able to race them without a tune on my car so as to compare the differences in power. I would hope that I get beaten very badly as an 80hp increase from a tune should have substantial results in a side by side race. I look forward to the day.
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03-26-2013, 12:13 PM | #80 | |
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Lol! Damn you California Girls!
see below :-) Quote:
Last edited by ColdList; 03-26-2013 at 12:19 PM.. |
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03-26-2013, 12:31 PM | #81 |
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Coldlist - I am sure am glad that you did all that work for me as there are a few things I could not answer since I don't have the tune yet. I was in the middle or responding and work (can you believe it!) got in the way and I wasn't able to finish. But, not to worry, this subject and this thread will not go away until a Group Tune happens and other M5 owners do comparo runs with guys/gals? that do have the tune.
By the way, RPIM5, please pm for any details regarding the Group Tune in Scottsdale due to the fact that I am the one arranging this with Ron. Unless you would like to take over from here? I would be just as happy being a participant; seriously. On another note, between a 30 rwhp tune versus a 68 to 100 rwhp tune there is a very large gap and the difference is going to be more than a seat-of-the-pants difference. Guess which one I will get if I have a choice?
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03-27-2013, 02:53 AM | #82 | |
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1) The "road" were power gains are measured, either by dyno or acceleration figures? 2) A unknown/completely new tune to the M5? I believe that #1 is the "old road" and has been used in the industry for ages (just as old as the other "road" of crazy HP gains and NO proof of it, just advertizing big numbers) And M'bitious is not going down a "new road" as regards the tune he is getting. Manhart has allready provided the before and after dyno runs AND Vbox data (and Manhart has some slight variations that the other tuners don't have on their M5's (at least not yet)). It's obviously gonna be interesting to see what numbers M'bitious gets when he does the same with his car. Then the other (Euro) M5 owners will have even more data to consider before choosing their tune. Hopefully this will get available for other than Euro customers in the future as well With all due respect, that must be so much more reassuring than just having to rely on "it feels much more powerful". And easier to come back if the car does not deliver to the claims. Manhart has really put their claims out in the open with dyno and Vbox data. That can obviously be used as a comparison, as they actually provide quantifiable data out there that can be verified on your car after the tune. That some tuners WILL NOT provide the tune to anyone wanting to get their gains verified seems strange (but understandable if dyno operators are not doing things right). Wouldn't it be a possibility to at least get some Vbox (or similar) data on a given speed delta for comparisons sake? (I get what has been said about traction, but others do Vbox runs...). Last edited by Boss330; 03-27-2013 at 05:27 AM.. |
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03-27-2013, 08:48 AM | #83 |
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Manhart uses regular tyres, no slicks. I have seen the car, been in it. The vbox run time is with regular street tyres and some wheelspin. Putting the power down is mainly an issue at lower speeds. For me that isn't a problem.
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03-27-2013, 09:15 AM | #84 |
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New Road
1) The "road" were power gains are measured, either by dyno or acceleration figures?
This road will be all of those M5 owners that do not buy a "base" tune such as the one by Performing Imports. Evolve, Ess, RPI, etc. all make great products that I have used also. But, take note that none of these tuners have responded on this base tune discussion. They will come up with tunes that are of less horsepower, more than likely, and be more conservative/innovative than the base tune. Make no mistake though, performance metrics will eventually put this "base" tune against the others by means of acceleration figures and the dragstrip. No one yet has said that it can't be measured. It's just not a good idea at all to do this on a dyno due to the advanced "adaptability" of the new DME. 2) A unknown/completely new tune to the M5? I believe that #1 is the "old road" and has been used in the industry for ages (just as old as the other "road" of crazy HP gains and NO proof of it, just advertizing big numbers) And M'bitious is not going down a "new road" as regards the tune he is getting. Manhart has allready provided the before and after dyno runs AND Vbox data (and Manhart has some slight variations that the other tuners don't have on their M5's (at least not yet)). It has been stated here over and over that the Manhart, PP and other tunes are using the same "base" tune. Easy to substantiate - just ask them either on the phone or on this forum. Where the other tuners are taking a "new road" is the additional power adders that are not in the base tune. I can't speak for other owners but I personally don't want to punish the factory clutch and driveline for a few more horses unless I am prepared to beef those components up at a later date. It's obviously gonna be interesting to see what numbers M'bitious gets when he does the same with his car. Then the other (Euro) M5 owners will have even more data to consider before choosing their tune. Hopefully this will get available for other than Euro customers in the future as well I spoke to Franz at Manhart about their tune a couple of times and my only reservation was the removal of the ECU and shipping this off to them. Anything can happen in transport. If it was done here in the US, no problem. With all due respect, that must be so much more reassuring than just having to rely on "it feels much more powerful". And easier to come back if the car does not deliver to the claims. Manhart has really put their claims out in the open with dyno and Vbox data. That can obviously be used as a comparison, as they actually provide quantifiable data out there that can be verified on your car after the tune. That some tuners WILL NOT provide the tune to anyone wanting to get their gains verified seems strange (but understandable if dyno operators are not doing things right). Wouldn't it be a possibility to at least get some Vbox (or similar) data on a given speed delta for comparisons sake? (I get what has been said about traction, but others do Vbox runs...). Answered in #1. I am comfortable with the PI tune and that is the only one I am comfortable with at this time. Although, again covering the performance aspect of the tune, there will be plenty of opportunities by other owners to substantiate the gains. I, for one, will do my 50 to 150 comparo runs against local "hot shots".
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03-27-2013, 03:18 PM | #85 |
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Since you are based in the US, I understand that you would hesitate to ship your ECU.
Look forward to see what results you achieve. Best of luck and enjoy your car (both before and after the tune) |
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03-27-2013, 03:46 PM | #86 |
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We still have to make it happen. We would like at least 5 cars to tune in Scottsdale and we still don't have enough people lined up. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
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04-05-2013, 09:04 AM | #87 |
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ECU Tune Update #2
The group tune in Scottsdale will be postponed to a date sometime in June. Stay tuned as there are other options being considered.
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04-05-2013, 12:53 PM | #88 |
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Vegas please. I'll be there in early and middle of June.
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