Albert Biermann Speaks on BMW F10 M5 - No AWD or Touring Versions. Manual for US.

[shaq diesel]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

I can see the argument about DCT vs. manual. The numbers do speak for themselves.

However, I will not buy a car that isn't manual because of the experience. I usually like technology, but it interfering with my ability to simply drive the car will not suffice.


Plus, an M5 is too heavy for track use anyway. How many M5 owners really track their car?

I always have a hard time when people say the M5 is too heavy for track use. The car as tuned on race tracks. It has a suspension system that is designed for spirited driving and it has gobbles and gobbles of horsepower. How is this car not meant for the track?

I understand that the majority of owners of the car are between their 40-60's, but what is there to make them spend about 15-20K more on the M5 from say a loaded 550i? The fact that the 550i is a luxury cruiser and the M5 grown-up sports car.

Some people do buy the car simply for the badge or the fact it has more HP. But I'd bet if you poll a segment of owners, the fact that the car is an all-around wonderful performer, and can perform well at the track without feeling like you're in a luxury cruise-liner, is a big reason for them to pull the trigger on one.

Now, you aren't going to go out and set track records in an M5, but you will have a blast throwing her around on Sunday while taking 2-3 high-profile clients to a business lunch, in comfort, on Monday.

[jmsent]

Originally Posted by simnew

The manual transmission is probably best for the 'sensation' of driving that we all got used to when we were learning. But it is undeniable that in the modern world, manuals are effectively becoming obsolete for so many reasons.

The vast majority of BMW's are sold with automatic transmissions these days and it just so happens that the modern auto is more economical than the manual. Add in the fact that traffic on ever more congested roads means that the auto soothes us on the commute home, and you begin to understand why they and now the DCT are so popular.

But in the real sports car world, manuals are dying out because the new DCT's with their paddle controls make the car faster, more economical, cushion the driveline more, save having to develop a special box with ever higher requirements for a reducing number of customers (even if many of them are in the US - funnily enough outside of the US is actually a much bigger potential market).

Personally I like the fact that you can operate the transmission via the selector on the transmission tunnel as well as the paddles on the steering wheel. At least you can give your non steering hand something to do ! But I do understand that, sometimes, everyone misses the 'satisfaction' of driving the manual where the skill of using the clutch smoothly and timing the change can give a feeling of being 'such a great driver'.

To lets face it, this is happening everywhere. The same has happened in HiFi, where the smoother sound of analogue is replaced by the more peaky digitial and quality (CD / SACD / Blu-ray ) is shunned for inferior MP3's and video on demand at 720p if you are lucky.

Perhaps if we were not always being so demanding - the new one MUST have more power, be faster, be more economical, must beat the Merc or Audi (not difficult) and rival a Porsche (can you still buy a manual one ?) then we would still have more human cars that interact with us rather than us interacting with the car.

You had me until you got to the part about the "more peaky digital" vs the "smoother sound of analogue". There's nothing peaky about linear digital (CD, WAV, AIFF, etc). It's more accurate, lower distortion, and more dynamic than analogue. It's also simply more revealing of the flaws in recordings and in the equipment used to play them back. Forget about low bit MP3's. They're digital, but they suck.

As for MT's vs DCT's I totally see his point, even if "the customer's always right". Let's face it. The performance of this car is moving beyond the driver's ability to control it, and the MT simply can't keep up with what the rest of the car can do; even with a highly experienced driver. Yes, there's something to be said for "driver involvement" and "tradition", but if you hold back the car's performance for the sake of nostalgia, then what's the point of buying this car? I already saw this coming when the 335 was introduced. Even the 6 speed ZF slushbox produces slightly better numbers than the 6 MT. Now the new generation is 8 speed, and there's the DCT option in some models. Like it or not, I think the MT era is coming to a close.

[JRV]

Originally Posted by PhillyNate

I'm actually a little offended that a representative is so inconvenienced by making manual transmissions for this small market called AMERICA. Which is actually their largest "M" market. This from people who claim they make "drivers" cars.

WELL SAID!! I am i shock too that because of the US only, we will get 6MT option. So what about the our neighbors in the north as someone asked..anyone know if they get same option?

[JRV]

Originally Posted by Touring

Very well said everything in your post Simnew.

Sometimes I have to escape into the "analoge" world of the past, enjoying vinyl cracking records or driving the 1980 3-series, which is just pure driving pleasure.

Then I can return to the user-friendly, efficient digital world with a smile on my face :-)

the DCT cars will all turn on us soon and take us prisoners, then the 6MT drivers with their manual cars will come to the rescue...reminds me of a movie

[KG3356MT]

Originally Posted by jmsent

You had me until you got to the part about the "more peaky digital" vs the "smoother sound of analogue". There's nothing peaky about linear digital (CD, WAV, AIFF, etc). It's more accurate, lower distortion, and more dynamic than analogue. It's also simply more revealing of the flaws in recordings and in the equipment used to play them back. Forget about low bit MP3's. They're digital, but they suck.

As for MT's vs DCT's I totally see his point, even if "the customer's always right". Let's face it. The performance of this car is moving beyond the driver's ability to control it, and the MT simply can't keep up with what the rest of the car can do; even with a highly experienced driver. Yes, there's something to be said for "driver involvement" and "tradition", but if you hold back the car's performance for the sake of nostalgia, then what's the point of buying this car? I already saw this coming when the 335 was introduced. Even the 6 speed ZF slushbox produces slightly better numbers than the 6 MT. Now the new generation is 8 speed, and there's the DCT option in some models. Like it or not, I think the MT era is coming to a close.

1 as a current 6MT 335 owner you are right. The 6AT 335 is way better than the MT. I could only imagine a DCT.

[Imola.ZHP]

I'll still dream of an M3 wagon until I can no longer dream...

[hajohehe]

I want one please let me know. Thx

[Ateam]

2 points-

1.M really does not care about U.S wants/needs in respect to the inherent want to please them. Rather its about profits. The manual will come to an end when the cost of implementing it (which he even notes is costly) no longer makes sense compared to number of sales of manuals.

Its hard to even go by numbers of manual car buyers out there for a model that offers both dct/smg and manual because if the manual went away, a large portion of those people who would have picked manual, will still buy the car and just go with the dct. Therefore when they look at how many buyers they will lose by getting rid of the manual, it is a lot less than simply looking at how many people buy manuals when given the option.

The cost will not be worth it in upcoming models as it has drastically changed this past few years.

2. Can someone explain the X5/6 trick diff they talk about and how that is different than the current m3/m5 diff (which I thought was pretty "trick" already!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Ateam

2 points-

1.M really does not care about U.S wants/needs in respect to the inherent want to please them. Rather its about profits. The manual will come to an end when the cost of implementing it (which he even notes is costly) no longer makes sense compared to number of sales of manuals.

Its hard to even go by numbers of manual car buyers out there for a model that offers both dct/smg and manual because if the manual went away, a large portion of those people who would have picked manual, will still buy the car and just go with the dct. Therefore when they look at how many buyers they will lose by getting rid of the manual, it is a lot less than simply looking at how many people buy manuals when given the option.

The cost will not be worth it in upcoming models as it has drastically changed this past few years.

2. Can someone explain the X5/6 trick diff they talk about and how that is different than the current m3/m5 diff (which I thought was pretty "trick" already!

I'm not one of them.

[TheBingoBalls]

Does anyone have a ballpark figure as to how much it costs the M division to R&D a MT for the M5? There were 20,548 E60 M5's sold and let's say even 40 percent of those sales were in MT, that's still 8000+ M5's which isn't really a small figure. So unless it really costs a lot to get a MT in there, MT should still be around but obviously towards the future it'll be gone.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

I haven't finalized my copy yet but was also at this event. Damon captured the mood well but left out something that in the grand scheme helps it all relate. I am paraphrasing here but youll get the idea.

Biermann said the manual in the M5 makes little sense bc of the general customer base- well off business men/women living in urban areas where there is traffic and they may have clients/colleagues with them and who wants to row gears in that situation. Yes, the US wants it and will get it BUT there will come a point where there is no business case. The R&D required to develop a transmission and clutch that will stand up to a crappy driver for 4 years 50k is not easy or cheap (they may even charge extra according to some sources.) The other point is that while the US is the largest market it is not the most profitable and that really does matter.

He also said the M3 and "little one" make sense to be manuals to keep costs
down (less power means less costly manual) and the performance of the car is
more geared towards those that track and less towards those that are driving
clients. He calls the 1M the "little one" bc as we know the name 1M is one and done, with eyes already on the M2 they have a recipe they will stick to.

AWD is left to the Xs. Also remember- Ntischke replaced Segler and there were changes made to future products. Biermann said that even with 400 plus engineers they can't keep up with the rollout of BMW products as fast as they like. They have sold over 150,000 M Sport kits this year (keeps the lights on and allows them to keep M cars reasonable).

As for the M3- that is for another day.

I have had the opportunity to test drive both versions of the F10.
And if you want the full-on M5 experience. Then stick with the M-DCT.
It is more suited to the car and there is something more useable in the fact that early morning drives to the office are flawless when you stick the car into D. But the cars responses are better served in the M-DCT.
M-DCT is what this car was conceived with. The manual is less an afterthought and more a form of appeasement.
I can forsee the M3 and next generation M2 Coupe retaining manuals , but for the M5 and above the days are pretty much numbered.

In fact if Bimmerposts spy photographers pull themselves away from all these imported US reality shows conceived purely for the brain dead and vaccous.
Then they might get the new BMW M(4) coupe which is now leaving Garching.

[manicm]

I don't get the US fixation on a manual M5. After all Ferrari don't offer a manual anymore?

[southlight]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

Also remember- Ntischke replaced Segler and there were changes made to future products.

What kind of changes? I doubt that Nitschke (or any prior BMW M CEO) has the power to command big changes, after all it's the managing board that decides about these things.


Best regards,
south

[vladberca]

A manual is proper on smaller cars:1M, M3 , but on larger cars like M5, M6 I don t understand the reason for a manual
Also, reading the comments I haven t observed at least one pro manual from... let s say an E60 M5 6MT driver...
It s a big difference in driving a smaller car with a manual vs driving such large cars with manuals....

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by southlight

What kind of changes? I doubt that Nitschke (or any prior BMW M CEO) has the power to command big changes, after all it's the managing board that decides about these things.


Best regards,
south

Just like someone can make a case for something, another can make a case against something...For example: Segler wanted one product while he was head and development started, Nitschke decided he didn't want the product and then made the case against it, development would then cease.

The board does't need to get involved unless the car will be serial production. GTS and CRT had ZERO board approval and never was presented to them.

But if the board did approve something they could disapprove as well- CS is an example of that. There is also an M that was dealt the same fate maybe someone else will chime in...

[Touring]

Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP

I'll still dream of an M3 wagon until I can no longer dream...

Me too. But theres hope. Check out what racing dynamics can do with a 335i Touring

R35s : (142 54 90 350 B)
Technische Daten:
Hubraum: 2.979 cm3
Leistung: 287 kW (390 PS) bei 6.250 min-1
Max. Drehmoment: 520 Nm bei 2.800 min-1- 5.100 min-1
Vmax: > 300 km/h


Combined with their rear differential (162 10 54 336 C) with up to 80% breaking, Brembo-brakes and Bilstein/HR suspension, this is going to be as close to a M3 touring as we can get

And , of course, in Imola red!!

[PhillyNate]

Originally Posted by Touring

Remember M wants to make their cars as fast and driveable as possible, using the latest technology. And DCT makes it faster on the Nürburgring, thats why they use it.

James May now hates the Nurburgring and I'm starting to as well.

[3s-a-charm]

Originally Posted by 宝马.e90

I think we all know in for the performance/track, DCT is the way to go but I'm willing to bet that there are quite a few buyers out there that won't track at all that would rather drive day-to-day with a stick than with paddles. Of course those users are very few given the numbers of how many M5's were sold.

I'm convinced that those who hold on so dearly to their love of manual transmissions have not owned a DCT car (test driving won't give you the same experience). I'm a firm believer and true convert. DCT gives you all the control without all the left foot movement, wrong gear moments, stop light fails, etc.

Also, for our climate, an AWD M5 would have been a real winner IMO. I for one would consider an AWD M5 my perfect vehicle.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm

I'm convinced that those who hold on so dearly to their love of manual transmissions have not owned a DCT car (test driving won't give you the same experience). I'm a firm believer and true convert. DCT gives you all the control without all the left foot movement, wrong gear moments, stop light fails, etc.

Also, for our climate, an AWD M5 would have been a real winner IMO. I for one would consider an AWD M5 my perfect vehicle.

I agree. If you're the driver that's looking for the performance and the technical aspects of driving, DCT still makes sense, you have the same control without the left pedal. But at the same time I understand those who are holding on to MT. Previous to owning my MINI, I never thought I would prefer a MT if I just wanted to go out for a drive. Now I know it's not the same but using Steptronic to shift gears isn't as satisfying as using a stick. But if I could afford a M5, I would definitely go for DCT but in a M3/1M, I would choose a MT.

[Dackelone]

I remember a time... not too long ago... when BMW was telling us how great SMG was... and why do you Americans insist on a old fashioned manual. They even put on racing schools showing us the benifits. Still we prefer (to buy) manuals.

SMG was a fail. Long live the manual trans.

[Touring]

Originally Posted by PhillyNate

James May now hates the Nurburgring and I'm starting to as well.

Well, he is Captain Slow , so no wonder

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm

I'm convinced that those who hold on so dearly to their love of manual transmissions have not owned a DCT car (test driving won't give you the same experience). I'm a firm believer and true convert. DCT gives you all the control without all the left foot movement, wrong gear moments, stop light fails, etc.

Also, for our climate, an AWD M5 would have been a real winner IMO. I for one would consider an AWD M5 my perfect vehicle.

Opinion and/or preference is not predicated on ownership (..which should be obvious considering that enthusiasts, by nature, harbor opinions on all types of automotive related issues without experience nor ownership) . The fact that people want to ROW their own cogs is the simplest of concepts to understand. Nothing else is worth considering to a die-hard manual transmission fan. Why? Because to these types of people (...myself included), paddles do not provide the same visceral connection. It's those very things that you mentioned that provide the connection and foster driver involvement.