Raced a NEW E63 AMG today...

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by tico12

I notice a number of folks on here dissing 4wd and testifying to the loss of power/additional weight and countless other drawbacks.

I would tread very carefully.

There is a reason that Turbo, GTR, Aventador etc have gone this route. Surely these super cars have weighed their options and have come down in favor of 4wd.

Surely these builders are trying to get the very best "performance" out of their cars, and they think 4wd is the route to get there.

I dont tread, I know by ownership--- 3 turbo Porsches and a GTR--- an Aventador is off limits LOL--- look at the hp on the car first.

The AWD comparo here is about a 2 ton plus cars with 4 doors, one has a planetary automatic (ive had 4 of them called the mct) vs a 4 door DCT car. The GTR is not light by any regards but a rolling stock vs stock race against an F10 will not be in its favor all the time (just look at another thread started here today) .

The Porsche runs amuck with a huge hp vs weight ratio and a PDK tranny- and yet it still slows down up top. I owned a 997.2 PDK with exhaust and ECU and it was faster than a stock Turbo S and would crush 2 ton plus sedans from a roll but thats apples vs oranges. The car traps close to 130 mph.

The convo here is fruitful and pertinent to the AMG sedan with an mct vs the F10 with a dct- I dont see the "countless" drawbacks or the dissing per se. Just a lot of experienced real world comments. I got real world ownership with 2 M157 cars and 4 AMG's with the MCT tranny overall. The transmission will hurt the car from a roll and the AWD will hurt power to the ground efficiencies at higher speeds.

If you re-read the posts the place where the F10 will be a match is from a ROLL. No dissing or pissing, just saying.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by Vic55

I dont tread, I know by ownership--- 3 turbo Porsches and a GTR--- an Aventador is off limits LOL--- look at the hp on the car first.

The AWD comparo here is about a 2 ton plus cars with 4 doors, one has a planetary automatic (ive had 4 of them called the mct) vs a 4 door DCT car. The GTR is not light by any regards but a rolling stock vs stock race against an F10 will not be in its favor all the time (just look at another thread started here today) .

The Porsche runs amuck with a huge hp vs weight ratio and a PDK tranny- and yet it still slows down up top. I owned a 997.2 PDK with exhaust and ECU and it was faster than a stock Turbo S and would crush 2 ton plus sedans from a roll but thats apples vs oranges. The car traps close to 130 mph.

The convo here is fruitful and pertinent to the AMG sedan with an mct vs the F10 with a dct- I dont see the "countless" drawbacks or the dissing per se. Just a lot of experienced real world comments. I got real world ownership with 2 M157 cars and 4 AMG's with the MCT tranny overall. The transmission will hurt the car from a roll and the AWD will hurt power to the ground efficiencies at higher speeds.

If you re-read the posts the place where the F10 will be a match is from a ROLL. No dissing or pissing, just saying.

+1

No one is saying AWD is bad at all. AWD is a HUGE advantage off the line and inspires great confidence in getting the power down to the road. But there is a little bit of trade off in high speed acceleration. Having owned a full bolt-on GT-R (tuned for E85) I know you can always up the power to compensate.

[tico12]

Points are all well taken...we'll just agree to disagree on some of them.

Don't really get comparison with modded 911 and standard Turbo. We all know that there are modded Subaru's that could spank standard 911's all day.

My point is simply that as technology improves we should have an open mind to these changes. A couple years ago most ///M enthusiasts scoffed at the idea of a non-manual ///M car. Now over 90% of you drive them and rave about them...that's why I said tread lightly

I know that Porsche & Lamborghini could have used any drivetrain they wanted for 918 & Avantador, but chose more complex and weighty 4WD. Why? My guess is that they think this will deliver the best performance. Seems pretty simple to me but I may be wrong.

Got a ? for you...If next-gen M5 has 600-650HP and ///M realizes that they can't put this down on the road efficiently, what do you think they will do? Dial back the HP, or go 4WD like Audi, MBZ, Pcar, etc?

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by tico12

Points are all well taken...we'll just agree to disagree on some of them.

Don't really get comparison with modded 911 and standard Turbo. We all know that there are modded Subaru's that could spank standard 911's all day.

My point is simply that as technology improves we should have an open mind to these changes. A couple years ago most ///M enthusiasts scoffed at the idea of a non-manual ///M car. Now over 90% of you drive them and rave about them...that's why I said tread lightly

I know that Porsche & Lamborghini could have used any drivetrain they wanted for 918 & Avantador, but chose more complex and weighty 4WD. Why? My guess is that they think this will deliver the best performance. Seems pretty simple to me but I may be wrong.

Got a ? for you...If next-gen M5 has 600-650HP and ///M realizes that they can't put this down on the road efficiently, what do you think they will do? Dial back the HP, or go 4WD like Audi, MBZ, Pcar, etc?

To be honest I wouldn't mind AWD on a future M5 as long as the weight did not increase from the F10. You would think that with a special car like the the M5 and its weight problem, BMW should be going with titanium exhaust right from the factory (even the "lowly" Z06 received that weight reduction technique).

[Niko1414]

I want AWD off the line then give me RWD... I want drifting and I want the feel . Why can't we have both... Just saying

[ayu910]

From Motorsport aspect RWD will always have advantage due to less weight, more mid/top acceleration, less tire wear, less brake wear, less risk on mechanical failure, etc. As I recall all 911 GTs are RWD and Lambo offer the -2 RWD version as well. As for the GT-R, it is almost like a RWD car and thanks to its active AWD system which can assist the driver under certain condition (launch, rebalance of traction, etc) if necessary.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Vic55

If you re-read the posts the place where the F10 will be a match is from a ROLL. No dissing or pissing, just saying.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by tico12

Don't really get comparison with modded 911 and standard Turbo. We all know that there are modded Subaru's that could spank standard 911's all day.

Well you brought up the Porsche Turbo so I wanted to comment to that. My bad as I did not elaborate all too well in my earlier retort. What I was getting at was that even with my 997.2 PDK Turbo being faster than a stock one; it still got a ton of its power robbed by the AWD system up top. This car is incredible but over speeds of 130mph it would come back to life. We all know these speeds dont occur daily but for the sake of the dialogue here i thought it was relevant to show what AWD can do to a car in the upper speed spectrum.

With more power anything can be overcome of course- GTR's case in point.

[tico12]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Well you brought up the Porsche Turbo so I wanted to comment to that. My bad as I did not elaborate all too well in my earlier retort. What I was getting at was that even with my 997.2 PDK Turbo being faster than a stock one; it still got a ton of its power robbed by the AWD system up top. This car is incredible but over speeds of 130mph it would come back to life. We all know these speeds dont occur daily but for the sake of the dialogue here i thought it was relevant to show what AWD can do to a car in the upper speed spectrum.

With more power anything can be overcome of course- GTR's case in point.

I brought up the Turbo(standard) simply to demonstrate that several great manufacturers are implementing this technology in their top-of-the-line products. And I think they are doing this for good reason...performance. If I am not mistaken, C4S with added weight outruns C2S in perfect conditions, and most certainly if the weather is not ideal??.

Sure, there will be less fun, feel and drifting, but as we know that's not the goal of these manufacturers. As has been said, all 4WD's are not created equal. I also prefer the feel of pure RWD, but in the real world, try driving at speed with a bit of rain/light snow/ice and then tell me you can perform better with RWD. Where I live in the N.E. that is a reality.

BTW, noticed you avoided my ?? On next-gen M5 possibility of 4WD as power and technology inevitably increase.

BTW, evn when I have tracked my C63, it was very rare and only for a few seconds that I was over 130mph. You guys are apparently at another level....maybe someday

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by tico12

BTW, noticed you avoided my ?? On next-gen M5 possibility of 4WD as power and technology inevitably increase.

BTW, evn when I have tracked my C63, it was very rare and only for a few seconds that I was over 130mph. You guys are apparently at another level....maybe someday

I dont totally get you... because I didnt answer your question doesnt mean I "avoided" it... much like the dissing of the AWD comment you made prior (we werent dissing AWD).

Ssmetimes I read rather fast. I thought it (your question) was actually for anyone so I passed over it with a quick glance.

Honestly I dont know what M would do... AMG only offers the AWD car in the states now but still offers the RWD S version across the pond. Both cars have the same hp so why doesnt AMG offer it up here? I would hope M would continue to sell cars with such hp ratings in RWD. Its their legacy to make or break. I love AWD cars for the simplicity (I have 2 right now) but as you stated, the fun is still with the RWD. I dont see your weather no doubt but I dont see AWD platforms (in sports cars) just for adverse weather conditions. Conversely I have driven my RWD higher hp cars in many a rain storm over my life and have never been overly concerned saying "I wish I had AWD". But when I do have my AWD car in the rain I enjoy it maybe a little more; I can not lie . And to top it all off, almost every whp dyno on the S63tu is showing well over crank 600hp so we already have the M cars with that output.

The best Pcars IMHO, are not AWD: GT2, GT2RS, GT3, GT3RS... oh and the Carrera GT. Only the venerable Turbo comes in AWD and matches the performance overall including speed and handling. Audi has always had its name aligned with Quattro- that will never change. Today I rolled my V10 R8 up to 163 mph but I feel the M6 from 60 mph would possibly get there faster. From a dig - no discussion.

[m-ch]

Sportauto test actuel issue:

supertest e 63 s amg Nordschleife time 7.55
0-100kmh in 3,7
0-200kmh in 11,9
100-200kmh in 8.2 sec

Sportauto
M6 test in comparo with the 991 carrera from March (non CP)

0-100kmh in 4,1
0-200kmh in 12,1 sec
100-200kmh in 8,0 sec

if you want a car to race from a dig, so RS6, RS7 or amg s
if you want a car for rolling races, and strong highspeed m5/6 Competiton paket should be the right choice

i do think that the m5/6 with competiton paket will run sub 8 secs for 100-200kmh