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      10-12-2011, 09:55 PM   #45
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With the spread of roundabouts across the US we could definitely use the AWD... So I could definitely see BMW coming up w a proprietary lightweight AWD system that would be controllable via m dynamic mode just that the gas mileage would nosedive
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      10-13-2011, 03:13 AM   #46
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lol are you guys serious ///M enthusiasts? I take it all the people who are asking for an AWD ///M5 have never turned traction control off in their cars and broken the rear end loose...
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      10-13-2011, 06:15 AM   #47
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It s good to have more options
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      10-13-2011, 10:30 AM   #48
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Not going to happen on the F10.
They have taken the original comments out of context.
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      10-13-2011, 10:37 AM   #49
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Actually, it is not the power, it is the torque that causes traction problems. Like in your example, if the car is 1000lbs lighter, has 450hp BUT revvs to like 12krpm (ie, lower torque) traction will be less of a problem. Of course having 12krpm engine in a production car is just a dream.

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Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
The point is people are touting weight loss as the key to better traction and no need for awd because it can keep the power down.

However a 4000 pound car with 600 hp has a weight to power ratio of 6.67

Drop 1000 pounds off the car and drop the hp to 450 (as an example of what people are in general wanting to do in order to avoid AWD-than the weight to power is still 6.6.

Both of these will have the exact same traction problems getting off the line therefore a lighter car with the same power to weight which needs to happen in order to keep the cars progressing and being faster than the last, will be no better off the line at putting the power down than a fat car with much more hp.

Handling is a whole different story and I am not saying it would not be great to have less weight with less hp but simply from a need for AWD arguement, that is not something you can address with weight loss. The more power to weight, the need for awd becomes pretty real with engines that put out that much torque and power so low in the revs.
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      10-13-2011, 11:00 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
Actually, it is not the power, it is the torque that causes traction problems. Like in your example, if the car is 1000lbs lighter, has 450hp BUT revvs to like 12krpm (ie, lower torque) traction will be less of a problem. Of course having 12krpm engine in a production car is just a dream.
Well you cannot compare a different engine. I am talking about comparing a car with the same engine/power deliver character. Meaning we are talking about a TT engine goin forward from here so the next m5 will be a TT with similar power deliver to the current TT.

Assuming that TT engine, than lowering weight will do nothing for traction, even if there is no bump in power from the current TT m5 engine.

Obviously if you have a totally different engine than you can create better traction down low.

But in the end its always power (aka torque at the wheels) that matters and engine "torque" which you refer to is meaningless as it does not take into account RPM and gearing. But to each his own. Build a lightweight car and put the current m5 engine in and tell me you are not even more limited by traction
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      10-13-2011, 11:01 AM   #51
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Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
Well you cannot compare a different engine. I am talking about comparing a car with the same engine/power deliver character. Meaning we are talking about a TT engine goin forward from here so the next m5 will be a TT with similar power deliver to the current TT.

Assuming that TT engine, than lowering weight will do nothing for traction, even if there is no bump in power from the current TT m5 engine.

Obviously if you have a totally different engine than you can create better traction down low.

But in the end its always power (aka torque at the wheels) that matters and engine "torque" which you refer to is meaningless as it does not take into account RPM and gearing. But to each his own. Build a lightweight car and put the current m5 engine in and tell me you are not even more limited by traction
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      10-13-2011, 12:30 PM   #52
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This is all still an assumption, who knows, it may very well turn out that the TT experiment becomes a disaster for bmw and ///M, and an utter failure in the market place.
While the buzz stats sounds nice to some, only after a few years in the market will we understand if bmw and M have destroyed their own enthusiast base with this move to FI. Im one, but not the only, that will never again buy an M due to the shift to FI, it remains to be seen how many people will enjoy the swith over to massive torque and the AMG-esque of the soon to be released M5. Its such an opposite approach to power and motoring that I cant imagine how they greenlighted this to begin with. But regardless, the market will now dictate if the right decision was made, and the next, next m5 will show this further. I can only hope that M either switches back to cars focused on driving dynamics and now stats, or offers more than one variant for each model, like Porsche does. Otherwise they will lose many more customers in the long run.
What they should have done of course, was build a lighterweight car (vs the E60) and stroke the S85. Then they would have trully be the market leader, not just another follower of the AMG philosophy.
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      10-13-2011, 12:40 PM   #53
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The M5 already now weighs almost 2 tons (empty). With an AWD system added, it would get even closer to the X5M cars, which - at least for me - is the antithesis of what M stands for. Even now, the claim from BMW that you can go on a track with the M5 is slightly ridiculous - it's simply to heavy for that. You see almost no M5 at all on the Nordschleife, which is a statement to its untrackeability (sorry just made that word up).

For what reason then buying an M5? Audi has even more experience with AWD cars, such as the RS6. They're also bloated understeering things, but well if BMW goes into that direction anyway...

Just my 2c.

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      10-13-2011, 02:22 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m630 View Post
This is all still an assumption, who knows, it may very well turn out that the TT experiment becomes a disaster for bmw and ///M, and an utter failure in the market place.
While the buzz stats sounds nice to some, only after a few years in the market will we understand if bmw and M have destroyed their own enthusiast base with this move to FI. Im one, but not the only, that will never again buy an M due to the shift to FI, it remains to be seen how many people will enjoy the swith over to massive torque and the AMG-esque of the soon to be released M5. Its such an opposite approach to power and motoring that I cant imagine how they greenlighted this to begin with. But regardless, the market will now dictate if the right decision was made, and the next, next m5 will show this further. I can only hope that M either switches back to cars focused on driving dynamics and now stats, or offers more than one variant for each model, like Porsche does. Otherwise they will lose many more customers in the long run.
What they should have done of course, was build a lighterweight car (vs the E60) and stroke the S85. Then they would have trully be the market leader, not just another follower of the AMG philosophy.

You can postulate until you're blue in the face, but the reality is that BMW is a company that is making a business decision that is in the best interests of solvency. For every one of the dogmatic enthusiasts who decide to no longer invest in the brand there will be another NEW enthusiast who will. BMW hasn't destroyed their enthusiast base. That's a preposterous statement! As long as the company continues to produce automobiles that are powerful, competitive and fun to drive, there will ALWAYS be a place for BMW M. FWIW, people had the same meager outlook when BMW moved to a V8 in the M3. We all see how that turned out.

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 10-13-2011 at 02:27 PM..
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      10-14-2011, 12:12 AM   #55
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AWD would be pretty sweet on an m5 I just don't know how much of the fun would be taken out of driving it.
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      10-14-2011, 10:24 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
You can postulate until you're blue in the face, but the reality is that BMW is a company that is making a business decision that is in the best interests of solvency. For every one of the dogmatic enthusiasts who decide to no longer invest in the brand there will be another NEW enthusiast who will. BMW hasn't destroyed their enthusiast base. That's a preposterous statement! As long as the company continues to produce automobiles that are powerful, competitive and fun to drive, there will ALWAYS be a place for BMW M. FWIW, people had the same meager outlook when BMW moved to a V8 in the M3. We all see how that turned out.
They have most certainly hurt themselves, and alienated a part of their core enthusiasts, that is a fact that I and many others prove, nothing preposterous in the truth....and only time will tell to what degree this impact takes hold. Again, you make assumptions that the new cars will be "fun" when that may or may not be the case, depending on your point of view. The e92 M3 is not a good example, since it still in fact followed the traditional M philosophy, NA high revving powerplant, but it will be interesting to see how things go in the F1x M3 when this model also moves to FI and breaks every rule that bmw and m set for themselves, we'll see how the community embraces it, or rejects it.
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      10-14-2011, 11:23 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m630 View Post
They have most certainly hurt themselves, and alienated a part of their core enthusiasts, that is a fact that I and many others prove, nothing preposterous in the truth....and only time will tell to what degree this impact takes hold. Again, you make assumptions that the new cars will be "fun" when that may or may not be the case, depending on your point of view. The e92 M3 is not a good example, since it still in fact followed the traditional M philosophy, NA high revving powerplant, but it will be interesting to see how things go in the F1x M3 when this model also moves to FI and breaks every rule that bmw and m set for themselves, we'll see how the community embraces it, or rejects it.

It is fair to state that both you and I are making assumptions. Your original statement implied more gravity than your toned down reprisal in the post above. My assumption is based on a historical timeline with the law of probability on my side. A horse a piece!

For what it's worth, BMW set dogma aside when they developed ///M SAV's with turbocharged powerplants. The "rules" have already been broken; this is progression (...whether people accept it or not). It will be interesting to witness the reaction of the "forum" community; a community that many consider to be a litmus test for that of the real world. The latter for which I disagree.
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      10-15-2011, 05:20 PM   #58
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      10-15-2011, 08:59 PM   #59
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      10-16-2011, 06:22 AM   #60
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