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      03-06-2019, 10:34 AM   #23
allmotor_2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Lots of cars can make power on 91 octane. Look at the Underground Racing Twin Turbo Lambos making 1,100hp one pump gas but race gas they make 1,500hp. But those lambos are completely different setup than what you are running.

Alex is capable of making a tune that will push out 2,000hp I'm sure but you've got to have the right hardware to support that kind of power. For you, Pure Stage 2's are great but are vastly underpowered for what the Carbahn motor is capable of. In other words they don't work with the Carbahn motor well.

Second is downpipes, you are probably losing about 40whp at the least by sticking with stock catted downpipes, but I understand the difficulties in going catless what with those California Carb laws and now you have the CHP patrolling everywhere just looking to send everyone they can find to the Referee.

Third, is tuning, you can't expect Alex to tune the car to what the hardware is not capable of. And as Alex pointed you his tunes have never destroyed a motor, if you want more risk I would suggest a different tuner, but you might be spending another 30k on a new motor when yours breaks again due to bad tuning.

Lastly, my personal advice, is that you just sell your M6, get what you can for it and get an F90 M5 or an M8 when it comes out. The ZF8 transmission is much more suited to your driving style as is the AWD, trust me you will love it. The ZF8 clutch can handle way more torque than the DCT and you will not need to worry about upgrading it. And the AWD will allow you to just mash on the pedal from a dead stop all day long. I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, it's just that the F90 M5 and it's AWD are so much better for that kind of driving.

In the end high torque and RWD don't go well together in any car design. 1/4 mile times are always going to be slower in these F-Generation cars unless you do some crazy modifying the rear suspension and turn it into a true dragster. AWD is just so much easier if 1/4 mile times are your forte.

Good luck!
Downpipes donít make 40whp... geez. At the 800+ whp level going from 200 CEL catted to catless made no power. Many cars push 750whp+ on OEM cars.

There could be many variables associated with Sís car. It will get sorted out.

Very few people have made good power on these setups and itís for a reason. It isnt just plug and play. Having tried almost every combo on this motor I can attest to that.
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      03-06-2019, 10:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolov View Post
Maybe because that's the 3rd reputable vendor you're low key bad mouthing on here, because you don't know what's wrong with your car?

Starting multiple threads with titles that question a brand's credibility is really not the best way to seek support from them.

Just my $0.02.

Good luck with your build.
Maybe you should read my very positive and nice response above? I can certainly understand why you think I was bad mouthing but that's never my intention. That does not get you anywhere. I am simply stating the data that I know now and looking for more information.

Bad mouthing and talking about the issues you have and the opinions of people are two different things.

I think its a bit unprofessional to attack a customer you've never met or spoken to like this but I give them a pass. Email/text/forums is a tough way of communicating intent.

That's right I don't know whats wrong with my car. Thanks for saying that again.

I am not trying to be sarcastic. I am here for positive adult discussions that produce results.

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      03-06-2019, 10:57 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotor_2000 View Post
Downpipes donít make 40whp... geez. At the 800+ whp level going from 200 CEL catted to catless made no power. Many cars push 750whp+ on OEM cars.

There could be many variables associated with Sís car. It will get sorted out.

Very few people have made good power on these setups and itís for a reason. It isnt just plug and play. Having tried almost every combo on this motor I can attest to that.
Thanks... yeah I know... I gained 0 going from cats to catless on my M5. I gained a little torque under the curve.

There's stuff to be sorted out. Not sure why everyone gets their hair on fire. Simply discussing how we get to good results. Which everyone should want here.

I am looking forward to talking with Mission. There's no gain in assigning blame. All we can do is compare opinions, use the facts we know and go through a process of elimination.
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      03-06-2019, 04:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotor_2000 View Post
Downpipes donít make 40whp... geez. At the 800+ whp level going from 200 CEL catted to catless made no power. Many cars push 750whp+ on OEM cars.

There could be many variables associated with Sís car. It will get sorted out.

Very few people have made good power on these setups and itís for a reason. It isnt just plug and play. Having tried almost every combo on this motor I can attest to that.
At what power level or limitations did you decide to remove OEM cats and use a custom turbo set up ?
Did you use Pure turbos on your Carbahn built engine ?
You also were not running 91 octane fuel correct ?
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      03-07-2019, 10:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionPerformance View Post
I just got a text from one of old customers informing me about this post, so I think its only fair that we go on here and give everyone another side to this issue.

Let me just start by saying that instead of bashing someone or posting incorrect info about them, you should first reach out, make a phone call or send an email to figure out what is going on and why your car is not performing as it should.

From the start, the shop your car was built at has informed you that you wont be making any serious SAFE power on Cali 91 and stock cats, no matter what else you do to your car. Instead of listening to their advice of either going with proper exhaust or at least using decent fuel, you pushed to get the car done to "your likings". We are not in a business of blowing engines up (and have yet to blow up a single engine), so we error on a side of caution. We never push cars past limits we believe are safe and we don't chase some numbers a customer has stuck in their head. So based on that, your car was tuned to the best compromise between safety and power.

Your car was tuned remotely by us while it was in the shop's possession. We wanted to use decent gas for the dyno, but couldn't since you said you will only run 91. Even on not so good cali gas, your car made decent timing BUT quickly ran into problems with boost. As you see from your own logs, your waste-gate rapidly closes by 6K and boost-actual doesn't come close to boost-target, indicating you have too much back pressure. That is a Mechanical limit of your setup, not a "tune issue". Furthermore, your shop nor you has NEVER requested to see logs, so please don't put up false information unless you are willing to back it up. And just for your reference, here is your log:

https://datazap.me/u/missiontuning/1...7&zoom=126-181


Now lets get into your numbers game: You are stating that your M5 does 12.5 while a stock M5 does 11.4-11.9. So going by that statement, you actually lost power after that build, even though you had enough torque to fry SSP clutches and pushing over 21psi of pressure with 15degrees of timing. Your car did 615whp on a dyno that reads 450whp for stock M5, so thats over 165whp gains, and yet you personally are getting slower trap numbers then a stock car. Something just doesn't ad up here, does it?

So Mission Performance:

You still have not responded to me, your customer. I've also direct messaged you. No response. Jesse @ Pure turbos has emailed you. No response.

You have alluded to ~550wtq blowing 900tq spec clutches from SSP?
You have accused the exhaust being an issue, which is just not true. That cannot max a turbo out because of factory cats. We have PLENTY of examples. The fuel certainly is a limitation and if we have a 163whp over stock as you say then were in a good spot and you did a great job. However... the turbos maxing out does not make sense and may not be your issue at all but looking for you to help and collaborate on solving this.

Lot's of your statements don't add up, I am sure you were just a bit hot when responding. Whomever texted you clearly heated you up. Do you want to work with me (your client) or just come out over aggressive and out of line here on the forum. Not a good look, I have only heard great things about you before and I wouldn't want this to be negative towards your business. That's why I am reaching out for your assistance.

I'm more than willing to let it go and start over but really disappointing as your client to be treated this way with this much time passing and no response after I've extended the olive branch.

Email me so we can setup a call. I've been very patient and nice.
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      03-08-2019, 10:49 AM   #28
allmotor_2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell1982 View Post
At what power level or limitations did you decide to remove OEM cats and use a custom turbo set up ?
Did you use Pure turbos on your Carbahn built engine ?
You also were not running 91 octane fuel correct ?
I removed the cats after 850whp.

I had OEM turbos briefly while breaking-in the motor and it ran fine. After that I switched to the Pure X setup (Garrett GTX3076R).

Car never saw < 95 octane + meth. All > 1000whp pulls were C16 + meth
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      03-08-2019, 03:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
So Mission Performance:

You still have not responded to me, your customer. I've also direct messaged you. No response. Jesse @ Pure turbos has emailed you. No response.

You have alluded to ~550wtq blowing 900tq spec clutches from SSP?
You have accused the exhaust being an issue, which is just not true. That cannot max a turbo out because of factory cats. We have PLENTY of examples. The fuel certainly is a limitation and if we have a 163whp over stock as you say then were in a good spot and you did a great job. However... the turbos maxing out does not make sense and may not be your issue at all but looking for you to help and collaborate on solving this.

Lot's of your statements don't add up, I am sure you were just a bit hot when responding. Whomever texted you clearly heated you up. Do you want to work with me (your client) or just come out over aggressive and out of line here on the forum. Not a good look, I have only heard great things about you before and I wouldn't want this to be negative towards your business. That's why I am reaching out for your assistance.

I'm more than willing to let it go and start over but really disappointing as your client to be treated this way with this much time passing and no response after I've extended the olive branch.

Email me so we can setup a call. I've been very patient and nice.
It may be the Pure Turbo along with the Carbahn motor. My cousin is currently having the same issue on his f80. Carbahn stage 2 motor with PS2+ turbos.
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      03-08-2019, 03:58 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydat1 View Post
It may be the Pure Turbo along with the Carbahn motor. My cousin is currently having the same issue on his f80. Carbahn stage 2 motor with PS2+ turbos.
There should be NO impact for this combination. The Carbahn is just like a stock motor just 0.5 less compression.
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      03-09-2019, 06:19 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotor_2000 View Post
There should be NO impact for this combination. The Carbahn is just like a stock motor just 0.5 less compression.
Ram,
I know I've seen your pure s1 vs s2 vs X post, however I don't recall if they were also tested on the carbahn motor or not. I know the X should be on the built engine. Could you confirm if s1 and s2 was on the same motor.

Last edited by tonydat1; 03-09-2019 at 06:26 AM..
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      03-09-2019, 03:14 PM   #32
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OP what tune and Oct are you running? Do you have any logs?
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      03-11-2019, 05:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydat1 View Post
Ram,
I know I've seen your pure s1 vs s2 vs X post, however I don't recall if they were also tested on the carbahn motor or not. I know the X should be on the built engine. Could you confirm if s1 and s2 was on the same motor.
S1 and S2 were on the same motor, identical config.
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      03-11-2019, 05:44 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydat1 View Post
It may be the Pure Turbo along with the Carbahn motor. My cousin is currently having the same issue on his f80. Carbahn stage 2 motor with PS2+ turbos.
I believe DME tuning has tested the Pure Stage 1 and 2 turbos on built S63TU's and have the same result of turbos maxing out early.
From a conversation with them that is why they go with Silly Rabbit Motorsport turbos which have a different center cartridge due to the OEM becoming a restriction.
I have not found a vendor with a built engine that released data on which turbos they chose to use and why.
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      03-12-2019, 12:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell1982 View Post
I believe DME tuning has tested the Pure Stage 1 and 2 turbos on built S63TU's and have the same result of turbos maxing out early.
From a conversation with them that is why they go with Silly Rabbit Motorsport turbos which have a different center cartridge due to the OEM becoming a restriction.
I have not found a vendor with a built engine that released data on which turbos they chose to use and why.
I've heard the same as well. I will let you know soon. Motor should be finished soon and I currently still have pure s2 on there.
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      03-14-2019, 11:39 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydat1 View Post
I've heard the same as well. I will let you know soon. Motor should be finished soon and I currently still have pure s2 on there.
What company or shop is doing your motor, if you don't mind me asking?
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      03-18-2019, 01:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm5bullit View Post
What company or shop is doing your motor, if you don't mind me asking?
I'll send you a PM.
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      03-24-2019, 06:20 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell1982 View Post
I believe DME tuning has tested the Pure Stage 1 and 2 turbos on built S63TU's and have the same result of turbos maxing out early.
From a conversation with them that is why they go with Silly Rabbit Motorsport turbos which have a different center cartridge due to the OEM becoming a restriction.
I have not found a vendor with a built engine that released data on which turbos they chose to use and why.
AIR flow is airflow though... lets talk real engine physics. If the turbos can make 850whp then they might make less PSI on a lower compression/ported head engine but it should net the same HP.
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      03-25-2019, 03:36 PM   #39
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Man this is getting me to think about my own build. Carbahn should me done with my stage 2 engine this month.
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      03-26-2019, 02:00 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
Maybe you should read my very positive and nice response above? I can certainly understand why you think I was bad mouthing but that's never my intention. That does not get you anywhere. I am simply stating the data that I know now and looking for more information.

Bad mouthing and talking about the issues you have and the opinions of people are two different things.

I think its a bit unprofessional to attack a customer you've never met or spoken to like this but I give them a pass. Email/text/forums is a tough way of communicating intent.

That's right I don't know whats wrong with my car. Thanks for saying that again.

I am not trying to be sarcastic. I am here for positive adult discussions that produce results.

Well, even having the best intentions and being "nice" one could still cause harm to a business. Remember that there are employees that rely on a paycheck to take care of their families. One post on the internet is all that's needed to ignite a chain of events that could impact them.

I did notice a key piece from the MissionPerformance post that you might have missed. They said, "From the start, the shop your car was built at has informed you that you wont be making any serious SAFE power on Cali 91 and stock cats, no matter what else you do to your car."

Three qualifiers: safe power, Cali 91, and stock cats.

Maybe that's where you should start with your engine issues.
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      03-27-2019, 05:20 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
AIR flow is airflow though... lets talk real engine physics. If the turbos can make 850whp then they might make less PSI on a lower compression/ported head engine but it should net the same HP.
850WHP based on variables.. dyno brand and settings, fueling, ignition timing.. dyno numbers can be manipulated easily.
The "delta" is what anyone's focus should be. Before, during and after testing on the same dyno, same operator etc. to show the actual gains rather then only an overall number at the end of testing.
An M6 with downpipes, software and 101 octane posted on these forums years back made low 600's on a mustang dyno in southern calrifornia then went to European Auto Source's Dyno Jet 2 days later and made close to 720WHP
If I was a company advertising high numbers I would want to show the highest possible due to wanting to entice people to buy a product.
Data of how the engine is running is what myself and hopefully he majority would.
Maximum PSI and RK Tunes are currently testing S55 engines with ported cylinder heads and should be releasing data soon showing that with a stock cylinder head there is more power to be made then a ported cylinder head.
They are testing a few internal engine components like valve springs for example.
They replaced the valve springs on the ported head and now they are making huge numbers.
I do believe that the Carbahn S63TU engine uses stock valve springs currently. There possibly could be some parts that are an influence which would require an engine builder / tuner to shine more technical data.
Again..lots of variables to take into consideration
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      04-09-2019, 08:30 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell1982 View Post
850WHP based on variables.. dyno brand and settings, fueling, ignition timing.. dyno numbers can be manipulated easily.
The "delta" is what anyone's focus should be. Before, during and after testing on the same dyno, same operator etc. to show the actual gains rather then only an overall number at the end of testing.
An M6 with downpipes, software and 101 octane posted on these forums years back made low 600's on a mustang dyno in southern calrifornia then went to European Auto Source's Dyno Jet 2 days later and made close to 720WHP
If I was a company advertising high numbers I would want to show the highest possible due to wanting to entice people to buy a product.
Data of how the engine is running is what myself and hopefully he majority would.
Maximum PSI and RK Tunes are currently testing S55 engines with ported cylinder heads and should be releasing data soon showing that with a stock cylinder head there is more power to be made then a ported cylinder head.
They are testing a few internal engine components like valve springs for example.
They replaced the valve springs on the ported head and now they are making huge numbers.
I do believe that the Carbahn S63TU engine uses stock valve springs currently. There possibly could be some parts that are an influence which would require an engine builder / tuner to shine more technical data.
Again..lots of variables to take into consideration
That's the story I heard as well for the s55 motor. Ram made 1000whp on a carbahn spec motor and never mentioned anything about valve springs, so I don't think it would be the same for the s63tu.
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      04-11-2019, 10:17 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydat1 View Post
That's the story I heard as well for the s55 motor. Ram made 1000whp on a carbahn spec motor and never mentioned anything about valve springs, so I don't think it would be the same for the s63tu.
Don't port the head... you can smoothen out the combustion chamber to prevent hot spots but all those motors with the big shiny ports never did anything.

You need valve springs IF you are going with an aggressive cam, revving the motor much higher (prevent float) or just running so much boost that the springs can't hold the valve shut (we are talking 45psi+).

The carbahn spec S2 motor is a very simple motor done right. Every other motor/setup has just blown up or never started in the first place. People get tied up to the hype and end up getting ripped off. The fact that even shop cars never really ran right is very telling.
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      04-14-2019, 10:21 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotor_2000 View Post
Don't port the head... you can smoothen out the combustion chamber to prevent hot spots but all those motors with the big shiny ports never did anything.

You need valve springs IF you are going with an aggressive cam, revving the motor much higher (prevent float) or just running so much boost that the springs can't hold the valve shut (we are talking 45psi+).

The carbahn spec S2 motor is a very simple motor done right. Every other motor/setup has just blown up or never started in the first place. People get tied up to the hype and end up getting ripped off. The fact that even shop cars never really ran right is very telling.
I agree with your statement that there are not many built engines running correctly.
Steve Dinan (Carbahn) came up with a formula to have a nice all around built engine. Its those wanting to push the envelope further that run into complications.
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