F1 2022: Brazilian GP - São Paulo (Nov 13)

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think the Rosberg vs. Hamilton situation is no different than the Prost vs. Senna situation, or Vettel vs. Webber situation or Hamilton vs. Alonso situation.
If both deem themselves the #1 driver, then there are no rules on the track and shit happens.
And maybe that also happened early on this year between Max and Checo.
Now the rumour is that it's due to Monaco's q3 crash.
But what if Max back then requested to go first on track and RB sent Checo out first? And consequently the crash happens?
None of us knows exactly what happened, none of us where there, none of us knows even if Monaco was the reason.
But both the reaction of Max ("you know my stand on this") and the reaction of Checo ("now we know what kind of a guy he is"), points at friction between the two (and RB) and holding some grudge over something.
It has nothing to do with the points scored sunday by Max, but it has to do with something happening earlier this year or before from which Max apparently thought not solved sufficiently to give closure. That's when things like this happen.
It's up to team management to nip stuff like this in the bud so it doesn't escalates.

I don't think this will ever be confirmed because this is the first I've read anything about Monaco, but if true, this whole situation is worse because VER held on to this grudge for something that happened months ago and I would be inclined to believe that the team would be aware of this. In that case, this should have been taken care of shortly after Monaco.

A Red Bull 1-2 in drivers standings should've been the sole focus and it's unfortunate that VER decided focus on his own grudge towards PER if this is all true.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

I don't think this will ever be confirmed because this is the first I've read anything about Monaco,

And it was said by Coronel and v. Haren.....
I don't know if you know these guys, but they are the biggest gossip making yellowpage journalists you can imagine (although Coronel is an accomplished driver with immense experience, but what you say and what you do on track are two different things imho )

We will never know what the deal was, but for sure it was about a grudge, that much is clear from both Max' and Checo's choice of words on the radio.
What Checo said during the post race interview that he didn't know why Max did that....that's a clear lie, otherwise he wouldn't have said previously on the radio "now we know what kind of a guy he is", as that clearly references to something in the past imho.
And the team was aware of it, Max said so on the radio. But apparenty both Horner and Marko did not solve it. In general my view is that no F1 driver really cares how good his teammate is.
You only get to F1 by either having a lot of money or be selfish on track 100% of the time. The only result that counts is your own result. And if your contract says you're the #1 driver you expect everyone to focus on that 100% of the time. Because the competition works in exactly the same way.

[Artemis]

Former rule 39.1. of the FIA regulations stipulated the prohibition of team orders interfering with a race result. That rule was abandoned in 2010 after the infamous "Fernando is faster than you" Ferrari incident during the 2010 Hockenheim race (see for example here). That prohibition had become rather toothless as teams would continue to bypass it with pre-race strategy briefings and coded radio messages. Ever since, team orders are allowed again. But team orders interfering with a race result never ceased sparking controversy, polarizing views, especially from a moral point of view (see more generally for example here). Cuts both ways: applauded by some as good, despised by others as bad.

Lots of fans often assimilate a driver's behavior on track with his persona as human being, ranging from 'nice guy' to 'nasty guy'. However, we all know that, although there may seem to be a lot of overlap, often the reality is way more complex. These are all highly competitive top athletes facing perils that could hurt or kill them, all capable of going into hyperfocused 'beast mode' in a very stressful environment requiring lots of multi-tasking and split-second decision-making, while millions of spectators are witnessing from their seats every move they make and every word they say or hear on track.

Now, about the wide-ranging spectrum of views on 'inverting track position' in favor of an outperformed team mate (either voluntarily or resulting from team orders):

• some will applaud that it's a noble or even altruistic gesture, compatible with the 'do the right thing' spirit, 'taking one for the team today', 'My Brother's Keeper' mentality;
• some will say that it's a respectable or loyal favor or reward for past or future endavors, a classy token of respect for the team mate and team;
• some will say that it's a calculated gesture or PR gesture, not as genuinely noble as it may seem, rather gnashing teeth for the driver ordered to give up the track position;
• some will say that it's an act that's incompatible with the 'let them race'/'may the best win' racing spirit; F1 drivers have spent countless hours fighting in several race categories during their youth to achieve their ultimate goal of getting an F1 seat (and possibly win F1 races or even F1 titles); lots of sacrifices were made by them and their families for the risky investment to become part of the motorsport elite; they train on simulators to achieve the best possible results; so it may be perceived by most of them as counter-intuitive to give up a track position for an outperformed team mate; they may experience it as unfair to be abruptly 'stopped in their tracks' by a team order or a plea made by an outperformed team mate;
• some will say that it's interfering (manipulating) with a race result as well as boosting the race statistics of the outperformed team mate in a rather questionable way ('race results with an asterisk').

Wake up and smell the coffee: F1 ain't no charity - it's a dog-eat-dog micro-cosmos, a big business ecosystem involving lots of money, prestige and ego. Tightened rules can contribute in limiting certain adverse behavior. But even within imposed boundaries of fair play, competition will remain mostly fierce and ruthless, action-packed with drama and intrigues. Not for the faint-hearted.

Whatever Verstappen would have done in the final lap of the 2022 Brazil race vis-à-vis his team mate Perez, criticism by those who dislike him was inevitable anyway, ranging from 'narcissist', 'greedy egoist' or 'disloyal and disobeying team member' (when holding track position) to 'hypocrite' or 'WDC points manipulator' (if he would have inverted track position). After crossing the chequered flag Verstappen radioed that the team clearly knew his stance in advance: "I told you already last time. You, guys, don't ask that [request to invert track position] again to me, OK ? Are we clear about that ? I gave my reasons and stand by it."

2002 Austria: official race-win for Schumacher in the history books after a controversial 'invert track position' team order by Ferrari to Barrichello. FIA handed Schumacher, Barrichello and Ferrari a $1 million fine for breaching the podium protocol, but not for the swap (Barrichello in 2012 about that incident: "It was eight laps of war. It’s very rare that I lose my temper, but I was screaming on the radio. I kept going right to the end, saying I would not let him [Schumacher] pass. That’s when they [Ferrari] said something about something much broader. It was not about the contract. I cannot tell you what they said, but it was a form of threat that made me think about re-thinking my life, because the great joy for me was driving."):

[ptack]

Interesting race from the get-go. Watching it unfold it looked like Max's move at turn one was just too aggressive. It looked like one of those moments when a driver sees red and believes he can take a position by forcing it. Sometimes that works if the other driver senses that you aren't backing down and gives way, but Hamilton didn't blink - though he was extremely lucky not get at least a puncture. What I imagine Red Bull has to review with Max was that he seemed to forget the game plan - medium tires=long first stint. He didn't need to force this issue that early in the race. He's got no one else to blame for this one. Not throwing a point or two to Checo also seemed quite immature. Even if he has good reasons not to like Checo, looking like a selfish jerk in front of the world is just stupid. Hopefully he'll figure this out. I've never been a Hamilton fan. I find him way too whiny, but I must say he's one of the most consistent drivers I've ever seen. If Max wants to equal Hamilton for championships he'll need to pick his moments more carefully.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by ptack

Interesting race from the get-go. Watching it unfold it looked like Max's move at turn one was just too aggressive. It looked like one of those moments when a driver sees red and believes he can take a position by forcing it. Sometimes that works if the other driver senses that you aren't backing down and gives way, but Hamilton didn't blink - though he was extremely lucky not get at least a puncture. What I imagine Red Bull has to review with Max was that he seemed to forget the game plan - medium tires=long first stint. He didn't need to force this issue that early in the race. He's got no one else to blame for this one. Not throwing a point or two to Checo also seemed quite immature. Even if he has good reasons not to like Checo, looking like a selfish jerk in front of the world is just stupid. Hopefully he'll figure this out. I've never been a Hamilton fan. I find him way too whiny, but I must say he's one of the most consistent drivers I've ever seen. If Max wants to equal Hamilton for championships he'll need to pick his moments more carefully.

Ham left absolutely no room. Not even 1/2 car width...this was literally the only time Max has had any type of incident this year whereas Ham always seems to be up to this type of behavior, and his teammate is even worse. What no one really saw until last year, and even more this year, was that under pressure, Ham makes a lot of mistakes. I guess when you actually have to race and you're really not that good it shows. When Max passed him at COTA Ham literally had no defense...since his only real defense is to usually put his car into someone.

Someone else posted the below so not my credit.

A little recap of Lewis season:
1. Contact with Alonso in Miami
2. Contact with Kevin in Spain
3. Contact with Ocon in Monaco
4. Contact with Alonso in Spa
5. Contact with Sainz in Zandvoort
6. Contact with Kevin in Monza
7. Contact with Sainz in Singapore
8. Pushing George of track Mexico and Miami
9. Contact with Verstappen in. Brazil.
As for Verstappen first contact in 2022 with Lewis.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by NYG

Lewis (...) He's a scumbag.

Originally Posted by John Tanglewood

Popped in to say that regardless of Max "the driver" is, Max "the person" is still a little baby back b**** who I hope will get an ego check in the worst of ways. Karma is a two-way street!

Come on folks, let's keep it civil.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Ham left absolutely no room. Not even 1/2 car width...this was literally the only time Max has had any type of incident this year whereas Ham always seems to be up to this type of behavior, and his teammate is even worse. What no one really saw until last year, and even more this year, was that under pressure, Ham makes a lot of mistakes. I guess when you actually have to race and you're really not that good it shows. When Max passed him at COTA Ham literally had no defense...since his only real defense is to usually put his car into someone.

The season Lewis lost the championship to Nico, they had a lot of contact. I remember Merc having to sit them down multiple times. At the time I blamed Nico, but now I question a lot of what went on that season.

[G30M]

I can actually easily reproduce that crash! I can be an f1 driver!

[Top speed]

https://youtube.com/shorts/E-0szkeL4TM?feature=share

Very similar incident with Max and ocon.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Top speed

https://youtube.com/shorts/E-0szkeL4TM?feature=share

Very similar incident with Max and ocon.

Max was half car length ahead of Lewis through turn one.

Never saw Ocon ahead in this video at any point.

I consider the Lewis/Max a racing incident. Don't put blame on either one.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Ham left absolutely no room. Not even 1/2 car width...

Some pics that clarify:

This is how much room Max gave Lewis (turn 1):


Which is...1,5 maybe 2 carwidths to the curb.


This is how much room Lewis gave Max (turn 2):


That is maybe 1,5 tyrewidth to the curb?
Anyone can make up for themselves if that is enough room for a car and whether or not this is comparable or in ratio with the room given in corner 1.

You can also see that Max has his steeringwheel almost fully turned to the right, but as he was forced way to far on that curb, the car just slides in a straight line. It's probably the floor sliding on top of the curb lifting some of the wheels of the ground.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Top speed

https://youtube.com/shorts/E-0szkeL4TM?feature=share

Very similar incident with Max and ocon.

I think here Max was a lap ahead?
There are very specific rules concerning unlapping oneself that don't apply when fighting for a position.
So not at all similar.
Unlapping is only allowed when it's non intrusive. So you're not allowed to force the car you're trying to unlap of the racing line, something Ocon obviously did.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by G99M5

I can actually easily reproduce that crash! I can be an f1 driver!

Interesting analysis. I also liked that they compared sound, in case the telemetry is off, lagging whatever.

Do Erik van Haren and Tom Coronel have a point? (I think they were the first with the monaco speculation)
Do I have to give them more credit?

This is Van Haren's story (dutch, but with automatic subs translatable to english.... or should I say dunglish...):

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

2002 Austria: official race-win for Schumacher in the history books after a controversial 'invert track position' team order by Ferrari to Barrichello. FIA handed Schumacher, Barrichello and Ferrari a $1 million fine for breaching the podium protocol, but not for the swap (Barrichello in 2012 about that incident: "It was eight laps of war. It’s very rare that I lose my temper, but I was screaming on the radio. I kept going right to the end, saying I would not let him [Schumacher] pass. That’s when they [Ferrari] said something about something much broader. It was not about the contract. I cannot tell you what they said, but it was a form of threat that made me think about re-thinking my life, because the great joy for me was driving."):
Attachment 3033019

What Barrichello said is the dark side behind the glamour of F1 that is either not known or ignored by F1 followers.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by Top speed

https://youtube.com/shorts/E-0szkeL4TM?feature=share

Very similar incident with Max and ocon.

Almost identical, you won't get the Max fanatics to agree he did anything wrong though, the rose tinted specs are very strong, very - very strong.

The fact that down the hill to turn 2 Lewis was half a car ahead and thus had the corner and the racing line won't even enter their list of things to comprehend. The fact that Max said that Ocon was an idiot for attempting that overtake and when Max does the same thing, well they can't fathom it.

Thanks for posting though I see the blind defence above has already been attempted, bless.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Some pics that clarify:

This is how much room Max gave Lewis (turn 1):


Which is...1,5 maybe 2 carwidths to the curb.


This is how much room Lewis gave Max (turn 2):


That is maybe 1,5 tyrewidth to the curb?
Anyone can make up for themselves if that is enough room for a car and whether or not this is comparable or in ratio with the room given in corner 1.

You can also see that Max has his steeringwheel almost fully turned to the right, but as he was forced way to far on that curb, the car just slides in a straight line. It's probably the floor sliding on top of the curb lifting some of the wheels of the ground.

Clearly the entry speed of HAM increased so he would drift into Max on the outside.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Almost identical, you won't get the Max fanatics to agree he did anything wrong though, the rose tinted specs are very strong, very - very strong.

Those rose tinted specs dont prevent us to see that there was a lap difference, something you dont seem to realise.
Maybe do some research to refresh your memory and read what the late Charlie Whiting said about that:
"Wholly unacceptable"
And that reads the same with and without those specs

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Those rose tinted specs dont prevent us to see that there was a lap difference, something you dont seem to realise.
Maybe do some research to refresh your memory and read what the late Charlie Whiting said about that:
"Wholly unacceptable"
And that reads the same with and without those specs

I remember it well, but some here don't have ANY and I mean ANY ability to see any wrong in anything that Max does. I'd like to think you aren't one of them and the comments balanced.

But many others on here can see black as white when it comes to Max and it takes two to tango. Yes people can love him for going for every overtake and closing every gap and going for every move and LH was like that at the start. But the reason he started to win more as he learnt that sometimes, yes sometimes it was better to wait to go for it at the next corner.

Right now the two of them don't give each other room or respect, that will always lead to incidents as they both think they are the best. They are both up there lets face it regardless of what some might think. Its going to be fun and fireworks if Merc can get the car to the front and the same for Ferrari next year, fingers crossed.

[GuidoK]

So you're calling it 'almost identical' because there are die hard Verstappen fans here?
So you're altering your own better judgement here because you don't agee with other people's judgement?
That is what I make of your post.

[MontyB1]

Here is a good analysis of the incident - clear, nope and I'm sure they will hit each other again.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Here is a good analysis of the incident - clear, nope and I'm sure they will hit each other again.

Everyone is going to interpret the rules but to note, in the video, should have left room =/= needs to leave room.

I think the video breaks it down nicely. While HAM could've left room to encourage "clean racing" (I hate this term) he is not obligated to do so because he had the correct positioning. Add the telemetry and data that was used, it's why VER was deemed at fault. Again, I'm sure people are going to chime in and say this/that. And it doesn't help that VER said he was just going to send it in post-race interview - sometimes you just shouldn't say anything.

Again, I think it was a racing incident like many others but everyone seems to look for blame because it affects their favourite driver/team. HAM did nothing wrong and I thought the same for VER…until he came out and said what he said.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Everyone is going to interpret the rules but to note, in the video, should have left room =/= needs to leave room.

I think the video breaks it down nicely. While HAM could've left room to encourage "clean racing" (I hate this term) he is not obligated to do so because he had the correct positioning. Add the telemetry and data that was used, it's why VER was deemed at fault. Again, I'm sure people are going to chime in and say this/that. And it doesn't help that VER said he was just going to send it in post-race interview - sometimes you just shouldn't say anything.

Again, I think it was a racing incident like many others but everyone seems to look for blame because it affects their favourite driver/team. HAM did nothing wrong and I thought the same for VER…until he came out and said what he said.

^This, especially the last paragraph. Ocon was wrong but Max had much more to lose in that spot than Ocon so Max made a bad decision tangling with him instead of letting him go. I have the same opinion here with LH’s decision despite how things turned out. Both were actually very lucky they didn’t DNF.

The thing with the hardcore Max fans here is they still excoriate Ocon because of that incident and calling him names etc. Plus, IIRC , some of the really hardcore ones said he should’ve went further in his after race fight with Ocon. I guess Lewis should’ve attacked Max after the race? This is where a lot of us don’t like Max’s personality or his fans behavior. Max did the exact same thing Ocon did to him and obviously two very different reactions. One he physically attacked another driver and then in this incident he blames Lewis for not leaving him room/saying Lewis ruined his chance at a win. Max and his fans always want it both ways and it is indefensible.