M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-30-2023, 10:58 PM   #2509
MTrumbo3
New Member
15
Rep
9
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW E82 128i M sport
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Southern California

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by P1 View Post
Guy I know has an e-tron. He lives in an apartment complex and he can't charge it there. So he has to spend his Saturday driving to the library to charge it there for a few hours.

"But it's OK, I just go out and get some lunch"

What a waste of time.
useless
Appreciate 5
Efthreeoh14417.50
M5Rick51634.50
kyriian704.50
P111182.00
      05-31-2023, 01:28 AM   #2510
M3WC
Brigadier General
3170
Rep
3,007
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...location...location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
...And the Tesla costs more to insure.
A lot more.
Appreciate 2
Efthreeoh14417.50
      05-31-2023, 04:29 AM   #2511
Patton250
Colonel
Patton250's Avatar
2915
Rep
2,539
Posts

Drives: BMW X3,M5,Turbo S
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Tampa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
A lot more.
Now that I did not know. How much more and why does it cost more? I mean letís face it these M cars cost quite a bit also. But if youíre comparing a Tesla to a Honda Civic, Iíd like to know why it cost more to insure a model 3 over a civic. And how much more.
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 05:20 AM   #2512
Efthreeoh
Lieutenant General
United_States
14418
Rep
17,803
Posts

Drives: E90 & Z4 Coupe
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MARLAND

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
That's my point. It's not true. At least not for Tesla from the data I have seen. Their rebates started getting cut in 2019 and were completely gone by 2020 yet they set sales records every year even though they had no tax credits. The data I have seen indicates this year might end up being lower than last year when they had no incentives. Of course inflation and all rest of it I'm sure plays a role, but if incentives were the primary motivating factor in people buying a Tesla vs an ICE then between 2019-2022 sales should have declined and they only increased.

As an ex-ev hater I think the reason they don't sell more is because of false range anxiety fears and political/social stigma associated with them. My guess is if anyone who is a candidate for an EV (has a home with garage or somewhere to charge it) was given an EV to use for a few weeks... I think the majority of them would be converts.
When Tesla's rebate allocations ran out at 200,000 units sold, it basically cut the price of its vehicles to match the -$7,500 tax rebate. That move was actually better for the consumer because it lowered the price of the loan costs by needing to finance less of the retail price. When there was the Government tax rebate, that -$7,500 was a reduction in a customer's tax burden (if he qualified for the rebate), so unless the customer put $7,500 or more as a down payment the loan was a higher amount, because receipt of the tax rebate was a post-sale activity.

Essentially the tax rebate never helped the lower income customer to buy an EV that theoretically is less expensive to own because of the lower energy consumption EVs offer. The new tax rebate law allows the $7,500 (max) to be applied at the time of sale, which effectively lowers the purchase price and therefore loan costs, but no one has yet figured out how to implement it.

I've made that argument years ago on on other EV threads here on E90 post that the original tax rebate law was actually a roadblock to EV purchase because it never lowered the purchase price of EV for lower income consumers. It really just helped higher income consumers come April tax time if they owed the Feds more than $7,500 in taxes.

And states still offered incentives beyond the Feds of which people still take advantage.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 05-31-2023 at 05:28 AM..
Appreciate 4
M5Rick51634.50
zx10guy5003.00
      05-31-2023, 05:31 AM   #2513
BGM-M3COMP
The Ben Shapiro of this place. I never lose! LOL
BGM-M3COMP's Avatar
2309
Rep
2,955
Posts

Drives: 12 plaids on order
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Tesla Land

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Anti eve vee ists have no answer!

This only gets better from here. Excuses will soon be no more lmaoooo

Time is on our side ev fans!!!
__________________
2035 on the move!!! lmaooooooooo
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 06:11 AM   #2514
Efthreeoh
Lieutenant General
United_States
14418
Rep
17,803
Posts

Drives: E90 & Z4 Coupe
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MARLAND

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Governments say they are going to do all kinds of nonsense. Let me know when an actual ban happens. How many administrations will have come and gone between now and 2035???

Shit probably more likely we'll be living in a post nuclear apocalypse by 2035. Or I might just finally be voted ruler of the universe and you all will be forced to drive miatas with the top down rain or shine.
4
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 1
M5Rick51634.50
      05-31-2023, 06:36 AM   #2515
freakystyly
Lieutenant Colonel
2207
Rep
1,570
Posts

Drives: F22 B58 6MT
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Now that I did not know. How much more and why does it cost more? I mean letís face it these M cars cost quite a bit also. But if youíre comparing a Tesla to a Honda Civic, Iíd like to know why it cost more to insure a model 3 over a civic. And how much more.
It's repair and replacement costs associated with bodywork, sensors, and other knickknacks that make logical sense VS a common civic. The Tesla after sale supply chain took a while to actually develop, it may be better now but it wasn't when the insurance people decided on things.
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 07:25 AM   #2516
zx10guy
Brigadier General
5003
Rep
3,213
Posts

Drives: 2013 135i
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Now that I did not know. How much more and why does it cost more? I mean letís face it these M cars cost quite a bit also. But if youíre comparing a Tesla to a Honda Civic, Iíd like to know why it cost more to insure a model 3 over a civic. And how much more.
Not a Tesla but a Rivian:



Go to the 3:11 mark and Rich goes over what seems to be a minor fender bender repair which is going to run him (or really his insurance company) just north of $37k to fix. He also mentions another Rivian video that has what appears to be less damage than his and that repair is at $42k.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
Appreciate 1
      05-31-2023, 07:46 AM   #2517
Murf the Surf
Lieutenant
Murf the Surf's Avatar
15453
Rep
419
Posts

Drives: Porsche 993
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Dog Lake, South Frontenac, Ontario Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Not a Tesla but a Rivian:



Go to the 3:11 mark and Rich goes over what seems to be a minor fender bender repair which is going to run him (or really his insurance company) just north of $37k to fix. He also mentions another Rivian video that has what appears to be less damage than his and that repair is at $42k.
That's getting close to "write off" territory.
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 08:24 AM   #2518
gonzo
Lieutenant General
gonzo's Avatar
United_States
9787
Rep
14,265
Posts

Drives: as many as possible
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: TeXXXas

iTrader: (0)

Deserves it for wearing Crocs.
__________________
Crazy Diamond
Appreciate 4
Patton2502915.00
Cos270592.00
      05-31-2023, 08:34 AM   #2519
TheWatchGuy
Colonel
TheWatchGuy's Avatar
3846
Rep
2,477
Posts

Drives: 335xi
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnhayes View Post
Yes they do. The discussion above was that $2000 in maintenance on a Camry was called ďutter nonsenseĒ. Itís not. 60,000 miles in an ICE vehicle can incur significant maintenance cost. My experience is that electrics are less due to less fluid reservoirs in general. The tires are generally more, but not always.


It was just a discussion point.

Shawn
sure $2k if youre including $600-800 in camry OE tires. But then you need to include the $1k in Tesla OE tires. (Prices per Discount Tire for OE Tires)
__________________
@drunkcowatches on ig

Am I a watch guy, or do i watch guys?
Appreciate 1
M5Rick51634.50
      05-31-2023, 09:30 AM   #2520
BGM-M3COMP
The Ben Shapiro of this place. I never lose! LOL
BGM-M3COMP's Avatar
2309
Rep
2,955
Posts

Drives: 12 plaids on order
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Tesla Land

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
turtles!
__________________
2035 on the move!!! lmaooooooooo
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 09:35 AM   #2521
shawnhayes
Major
1622
Rep
1,206
Posts

Drives: 22M5 CS,23X5E,24M3 CS,14 F31
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
sure $2k if youre including $600-800 in camry OE tires. But then you need to include the $1k in Tesla OE tires. (Prices per Discount Tire for OE Tires)
Of course. But the idea that "tires don't count toward maintenance costs" is ludicrous. The Camry tires MAY be cheaper (not always, have to price them). This analysis included all services. I include everything, but depreciation isn't really important to me, cause I don't let them go much. But I don't exclude that from any analysis just because its convenient for my argument.

Shawn
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 09:39 AM   #2522
kyriian
Captain
kyriian's Avatar
705
Rep
617
Posts

Drives: 06 Black Sapphire Z4MR
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 BMW X5  [0.00]
2011 Scion tC  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnhayes View Post
Yes they do. The discussion above was that $2000 in maintenance on a Camry was called “utter nonsense”. It’s not. 60,000 miles in an ICE vehicle can incur significant maintenance cost. My experience is that electrics are less due to less fluid reservoirs in general. The tires are generally more, but not always.


It was just a discussion point.

Shawn
You never owned a Toyota have you... because in 13 years owning my Scion over 83k miles, I had to spend a grand total of 1/4 quart of coolant, once. Not once have I had to put oil in outside of standard oil changes.

Using my own Scion as a benchmark over 60k miles (which uses the same motor as a 2012-2017 Camry), I have spent $600 over 10 oil changes, $75 in 1 coolant swap at the shop, 1 Costco Battery for $100

So total, if we use the idea of removing common consumables like tires and brakes between EV and ICE, I have spent a total of $775 over 60k miles.
I mean, more than 50% over estimate is not utter nonsense I guess....

My tires cost me $600, and that was Bridgestone RE980AS, not some cheapo tire.
I won't know the cost of replacing brakes since I did my own, but 2 sets of front pads, 1 set of rear pads, 4 rotors is about $250 USD from Rockauto
Total cost for me over 60k miles including tires: $775 + $600+250 = $1625

Let's compare to a Model 3, since we are talking here
I will assume a Tesla will consume the same brakes

2 sets of the same grade to my pads in rockauto 'premium' grade, Powerstops is $440 USD (rough estimate after conversion, this is 2 sets of front pads, 1 set of rear pads, 4 rotors)
1 set of Bridgestone RE980AS+ in 235/45-18 from tirerack is $783 USD after rebate.
Total cost for the Model 3: $1223

Even after adding brakes and tires, I am STILL under 2k

2K in maintainance over 60k miles likely applies more so to a BMW and had you use a BMW as a comparison then few would argue, but you are literally comparing to one of the most reliable cars with a low running cost.
__________________
Revolution of our Times

Last edited by kyriian; 05-31-2023 at 10:00 AM..
Appreciate 1
KRS_SN11282.50
      05-31-2023, 09:46 AM   #2523
TheWatchGuy
Colonel
TheWatchGuy's Avatar
3846
Rep
2,477
Posts

Drives: 335xi
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnhayes View Post
Of course. But the idea that "tires don't count toward maintenance costs" is ludicrous. The Camry tires MAY be cheaper (not always, have to price them). This analysis included all services. I include everything, but depreciation isn't really important to me, cause I don't let them go much. But I don't exclude that from any analysis just because its convenient for my argument.

Shawn
if both vehicles need it, then i wouldnt count it in to the maintenance cost difference. if you want to include tires, then its 2k for the camry, and 1k for the tesla. for a net of 1k more in maintenance for the camry.

I priced them both for 2023s off discount tire.
__________________
@drunkcowatches on ig

Am I a watch guy, or do i watch guys?
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 09:53 AM   #2524
shawnhayes
Major
1622
Rep
1,206
Posts

Drives: 22M5 CS,23X5E,24M3 CS,14 F31
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
You never owned a Toyota have you... because in 13 years owning my Scion over 83k miles, I had to spend a grand total of 1/4 quart of coolant, once. Not once have I had to put oil in outside of standard oil changes.
Holy mother of Pearl...

1993 Toyota Camry LE, owned from 1993 until 2012 when it was wrecked. 175,000 miles. All the scions are cheap crapboxes compared to that limo. It wasn't a huge amount of maintenance, but it wasn't as good as my 1992 Honda Civic CX, which is still on the road today, and the only things it needed were a water pump, and a drivers side interior handle.

Please stop jumping to conclusions. You might sprain your ankle.

Shawn
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 10:00 AM   #2525
shawnhayes
Major
1622
Rep
1,206
Posts

Drives: 22M5 CS,23X5E,24M3 CS,14 F31
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
if both vehicles need it, then i wouldnt count it in to the maintenance cost difference. if you want to include tires, then its 2k for the camry, and 1k for the tesla. for a net of 1k more in maintenance for the camry.

I priced them both for 2023s off discount tire.
It's maintenance for them both. Tire cost and how much they wear them out is very important. I'll bet the Tesla wears out more expensive tires faster. My i8 wore out back tires like there was no tomorrow.

The whole thing centered around calling $2k in 60,000 miles for the camry not valid. It is. AND, honestly, if you're going to keep the damn thing, a transmission oil drain and fill as well as brake fluid, and probably brake pads. And one coolant drain and flush. Brake pads age, and don't brake as well at five years. It's just part of owning the car. As well as insurance, and property tax.

I'm not myopic on any of these. Not at all. But I CAN tell you that when maintained similar ways, the overall cost on an electric certainly SEEMS smaller when writing the checks, even when you DIY like I do (except tires and alignments, those machines are expensive).

Shawn
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 10:08 AM   #2526
kyriian
Captain
kyriian's Avatar
705
Rep
617
Posts

Drives: 06 Black Sapphire Z4MR
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 BMW X5  [0.00]
2011 Scion tC  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnhayes View Post
Holy mother of Pearl...

1993 Toyota Camry LE, owned from 1993 until 2012 when it was wrecked. 175,000 miles. All the scions are cheap crapboxes compared to that limo. It wasn't a huge amount of maintenance, but it wasn't as good as my 1992 Honda Civic CX, which is still on the road today, and the only things it needed were a water pump, and a drivers side interior handle.

Please stop jumping to conclusions. You might sprain your ankle.

Shawn
Oh jeez...

Cherry picking my statment like how you do right?

Maths, YOUR very statement why EV has momentum is already discussed by everyone, 2k in maintainace, YOUR statement

My maintainace is 1625 including tires, not 2k

Model 3, including the same grade and consumption rate in brakes and tires, is at best $400 bucks cheaper over 60k miles,

I will state AGAIN, never have been pro ICE or pro EV, its just a fking car and if the maths work for you and anyone else great, good for you. But throwing random numbers like this is utter nonsense because its not true as Efthreeoh has already pointed out
You also seem to be the only one who add the same consumable costs to your equation, considering most EV uses tires faster, uses brakes faster (just heavier weight) so removing these two factors BENEFITS EV.
__________________
Revolution of our Times

Last edited by kyriian; 05-31-2023 at 10:14 AM..
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 10:15 AM   #2527
freakystyly
Lieutenant Colonel
2207
Rep
1,570
Posts

Drives: F22 B58 6MT
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)



In reality the only fluid EVs don't use is engine oil unless the motors are direct drive. Coolant, brake fluid, transmission fluid, washer fluid all present. And of course fuel but that isn't exactly a wear item... Wear and tear should reflect a heavier vehicle (minus brake pads thanks to regen).

Last edited by freakystyly; 05-31-2023 at 10:20 AM..
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 10:54 AM   #2528
freakystyly
Lieutenant Colonel
2207
Rep
1,570
Posts

Drives: F22 B58 6MT
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'd bet at 60,000 the Camry would still be on the original tires and brakes.
I believe that, a lot of all seasons have excellent wear these days.

It's shocking how many people in the general public never look at their tires until someone tells them to... going in for service or gov. inspection is often a benefit beyond the service expected.
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 11:03 AM   #2529
BGM-M3COMP
The Ben Shapiro of this place. I never lose! LOL
BGM-M3COMP's Avatar
2309
Rep
2,955
Posts

Drives: 12 plaids on order
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Tesla Land

iTrader: (0)

Garage List


2028 will really be the start of the party!
__________________
2035 on the move!!! lmaooooooooo
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2023, 12:43 PM   #2530
shawnhayes
Major
1622
Rep
1,206
Posts

Drives: 22M5 CS,23X5E,24M3 CS,14 F31
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakystyly View Post


In reality the only fluid EVs don't use is engine oil unless the motors are direct drive. Coolant, brake fluid, transmission fluid, washer fluid all present. And of course fuel but that isn't exactly a wear item... Wear and tear should reflect a heavier vehicle (minus brake pads thanks to regen).
Many are direct drive. And you're forgetting differentials. None of the EV drivetrains I've had so far have differential fluid (some of BMW's hybrid drivetrains do). Even if they have transmissions, because they aren't sitting next to a 250 degree lump of metal, the transmission fluid lasts longer because of lack of thermal stress.

Shawn
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:55 PM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST