M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-28-2023, 07:08 PM   #1343
Patton250
Colonel
Patton250's Avatar
2915
Rep
2,539
Posts

Drives: BMW X3,M5,Turbo S
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Tampa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
I donít think this is a capitalism issue. The government regulates all sorts of things you can and canít buy on the basis of the environment. Leaded gas used to be a thing. Catalytic converters are now required. People used to smoke cigarettes in the office at work. EVs are just a differently flavor of this.

And like socal said, this isnít happening over night. Itís a gradual transition years in the making.
I donít think weíre allowed to discuss this here. Iím not saying your points are wrong Iím just saying it will cause this discussion to go into a direction that will quite possibly trigger some people. So Iím just going with itís a capitalism thing and will just leave it at that.
Appreciate 0
      02-28-2023, 07:13 PM   #1344
2023G87M2
Enlisted Member
39
Rep
36
Posts

Drives: F87
Join Date: Feb 2023
Location: Dortmund

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
You make some excellent points, and I agree with much of what you wrote with the exception of worrying. I am not worrying about anything other than political interference. Allow flat out capitalism to determine the direction we go and Iíll be happy as a school boy on Christmas Eve. But one thing is for sure and you made this point, even with all out government interference itís still going to take many decades, to even think about eliminating ice.
Political interference should work both ways then don't you think? Capitalism interferes non stop with politics through lobbying, buying out politicians. So you would think it would work both ways?

The EV laws that may come, have NOTHING to do with government, but everything to do with the wealthy. You see, powerful and or wealthy people HATED smog in their cities like new York or la, INCLUDING politicians or shareholders etc. That's why the anti smog laws came about. If the EV laws are passed, they will be done in transitional phases, once more infrastructure is in place, and once enough shareholders have gotten even richer through oil, ICE, etc. EVs are like another anti smog law. Not even billionaires or car company CEO'S today would want to go back to pre smog laws because all it has done is benefit their property from not being covered in smog. The same thing will be true with EVs.

Last edited by 2023G87M2; 02-28-2023 at 07:25 PM..
Appreciate 1
Cos270592.00
      02-28-2023, 07:48 PM   #1345
Cos270
First Lieutenant
Cos270's Avatar
592
Rep
368
Posts

Drives: 2015 M235i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: MI

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F22 M235i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I sound like a broken record but, if PHEV's are included the mandates will not slip because one still has a gas back up if you need it.
One problem with that, how many PHEVs are being developed for the US market right now? Not enough to sustain the demand that would be generated. Unless you're insinuating that the current supply of PHEVs on sale today is sufficient to offset the emission restrictions. Pretty much everyone but Toyota has made it abundantly clear they are making the jump straight from ICE to EV with no hybrid stop-gap.
Appreciate 0
      02-28-2023, 07:50 PM   #1346
Cos270
First Lieutenant
Cos270's Avatar
592
Rep
368
Posts

Drives: 2015 M235i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: MI

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F22 M235i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
So we can go around and around but at the end of the day let's not forget that "the government" has imposed deadlines. In my experience they have failed to hit a single "on time/on budget" in history.

I suspect that as time goes along the mandates will slip as they can't get the infrastructure and associated approvals in line within a generation.
Deadlines for manufacturers is one thing (and as you say, can easily be pushed out). I'm talking about carbon taxes for private citizens, mileage restrictions/limits, etc. These will be enacted eventually regardless of manufacturers' progress or lack thereof.
Appreciate 0
      02-28-2023, 07:54 PM   #1347
Cos270
First Lieutenant
Cos270's Avatar
592
Rep
368
Posts

Drives: 2015 M235i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: MI

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F22 M235i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2023G87M2 View Post
Political interference should work both ways then don't you think? Capitalism interferes non stop with politics through lobbying, buying out politicians. So you would think it would work both ways?

The EV laws that may come, have NOTHING to do with government, but everything to do with the wealthy. You see, powerful and or wealthy people HATED smog in their cities like new York or la, INCLUDING politicians or shareholders etc. That's why the anti smog laws came about. If the EV laws are passed, they will be done in transitional phases, once more infrastructure is in place, and once enough shareholders have gotten even richer through oil, ICE, etc. EVs are like another anti smog law. Not even billionaires or car company CEO'S today would want to go back to pre smog laws because all it has done is benefit their property from not being covered in smog. The same thing will be true with EVs.
Couldn't be more correct (though I think the incentives are a little more lucrative than smog reduction haha - that's just a bonus). People need to wake up and realize this is not purely political. It's not about the "left" or "right". In the word's of George Carlin "There's a big club, and you ain't in it" - this is the status quo they will stop at nothing to maintain. This time it's just being sold under the guise of environmentalism.
Appreciate 1
kyriian704.50
      02-28-2023, 08:22 PM   #1348
2023G87M2
Enlisted Member
39
Rep
36
Posts

Drives: F87
Join Date: Feb 2023
Location: Dortmund

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
Couldn't be more correct (though I think the incentives are a little more lucrative than smog reduction haha - that's just a bonus). People need to wake up and realize this is not purely political. It's not about the "left" or "right". In the word's of George Carlin "There's a big club, and you ain't in it" - this is the status quo they will stop at nothing to maintain. This time it's just being sold under the guise of environmentalism.
Your right. Another form of pollution is noise smog. Imagine how quiet everything will be without car noise. I'm actually kind of happy about this part. I still want ICE for track use and some canyon roads should be reserved for enthusiasts with ICE allowed. But we don't need to worry about this for a LONG TIME

Real environmentalism would work something like this.

All cars EV
All power plants hydro, wind, a little of solar or solar roofs, geothermal (in areas that have it), and most importantly, Nuclear (but unaware people think nuclear=chernobyl)
Stopping all animal farming
Stopping fishing or at least overfishing
Stopping tree cutting by like 3/4ths
Cutting useless mail out to replace with email
More public transport.
Factories need to stop dumping waste or using oil/gas as energy.

Beyond that, I don't see cargo ships or planes going EV anytime soon, perhaps ethanol may replace oil?


SO Yea when you see that list, you just KNOW none of the things on the list will happen not even in the next 30 years. So people shouldn't be afraid whatsoever. The earth will continue building up more methane and co2. Climate deniers are like creationists or flat eathers. I assume no one here denies climate change
Appreciate 1
Cos270592.00
      02-28-2023, 09:32 PM   #1349
chad86tsi
Captain
chad86tsi's Avatar
1498
Rep
755
Posts

Drives: 2019 BMW M760i P60 Greyblack
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Portland metro

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post
Worrying about any of it in 2023 is a waste of time
People care because this 12 year goal is already impacting them.
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 01:55 AM   #1350
RichF90M5C
Lieutenant
RichF90M5C's Avatar
1599
Rep
422
Posts

Drives: 2023 F90 M5 Competition
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Instead of UK, Brit drivers should put EU FU on their cars.
Iíd be more inclined to have FU UK on mine, Iím so embarrassed of this country right now.
Appreciate 1
M5Rick51634.50
      03-01-2023, 01:56 AM   #1351
RichF90M5C
Lieutenant
RichF90M5C's Avatar
1599
Rep
422
Posts

Drives: 2023 F90 M5 Competition
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Off peak charging rates is a thing NOW
When EVs become a larger part of the market say 2035
If 50% of the new cars are EV, the electric companies will know they got you by the short hairs
They can change their rates to maximize profit
For a normal Household, they can track usage based on load
Not charging a 100kwhr battery is one price
Charge your EV and put load on the circuit, a different higher price
Imagine paying more to charge your EV than paying for gas would be a reality soon in the future
Iíve been saying this will happen for months, people think Iím crazy.
Appreciate 1
Cos270592.00
      03-01-2023, 02:44 AM   #1352
M5Rick
Lieutenant General
M5Rick's Avatar
51635
Rep
16,941
Posts

Drives: M5 F10 DCT Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichF90M5C View Post
Iíd be more inclined to have FU UK on mine, Iím so embarrassed of this country right now.
Sod it, I should have included it too. I'll only be voting for Jeremy Clarkson now if he stands for government.
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 05:38 AM   #1353
Tejas1836
Captain
Tejas1836's Avatar
746
Rep
668
Posts

Drives: 2023 X5MC Workmaster 75
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Tejas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Off peak charging rates is a thing NOW
When EVs become a larger part of the market say 2035
If 50% of the new cars are EV, the electric companies will know they got you by the short hairs
They can change their rates to maximize profit
For a normal Household, they can track usage based on load
Not charging a 100kwhr battery is one price
Charge your EV and put load on the circuit, a different higher price
Imagine paying more to charge your EV than paying for gas would be a reality soon in the future
The power companies will need to spend an estimated $5,800 per EV for the next 8 years to update the electrical grid for EV charging. That money has to come from somewhere, subsidies or directly.
__________________
Two is One and One is None
Appreciate 1
Cos270592.00
      03-01-2023, 07:30 AM   #1354
Alfisti
Colonel
6011
Rep
2,808
Posts

Drives: 2013 X3 (Totaled)
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
One problem with that, how many PHEVs are being developed for the US market right now? Not enough to sustain the demand that would be generated. Unless you're insinuating that the current supply of PHEVs on sale today is sufficient to offset the emission restrictions. Pretty much everyone but Toyota has made it abundantly clear they are making the jump straight from ICE to EV with no hybrid stop-gap.
Even Toyota axed their leader because he was adamant PHEV's would be the medium term solution. So I hear you, but reality is, in about 5 years, as 2035 gets closer, there will be a realisation we won't have the public charging in place for a pure EV transition and PHEV's will be back on the table.

It's already law in Canada.
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 12:05 PM   #1355
chris719
Major General
6691
Rep
6,800
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
You make some excellent points, and I agree with much of what you wrote with the exception of worrying. I am not worrying about anything other than political interference. Allow flat out capitalism to determine the direction we go and I’ll be happy as a school boy on Christmas Eve. But one thing is for sure and you made this point, even with all out government interference it’s still going to take many decades, to even think about eliminating ice.
Your utopia would have DuPont, for example, dumping even more toxic chemicals into rivers all over the country while we breathe in leaded gasoline fumes. Capitalism cannot solve these type of problems. Corporations will deny the harm until well past the point it is completely obvious. See, tobacco, leaded gasoline, PFAS, etc. Sorry, I do not want to go back to the early 1900s.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...tudy-rcna19028
Appreciate 1
SoCal_NSX2169.50
      03-01-2023, 12:08 PM   #1356
Patton250
Colonel
Patton250's Avatar
2915
Rep
2,539
Posts

Drives: BMW X3,M5,Turbo S
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Tampa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Your utopia would have DuPont, for example, dumping even more toxic chemicals into rivers all over the country while we breathe in leaded gasoline fumes. Capitalism cannot solve these type of problems. Corporations will deny the harm until well past it is completely obvious. See, tobacco, leaded gasoline, PFAS, etc.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...tudy-rcna19028
What a bunch of utter nonsense. Yes, most people that run big businessís the first thing they wanna do is make the earth unlivable for themselves and their children and their grandchildren. I donít really think I can have a serious conversation with someone that makes statements like you did. Besides we really arenít allowed to discuss it here.
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 12:16 PM   #1357
chad86tsi
Captain
chad86tsi's Avatar
1498
Rep
755
Posts

Drives: 2019 BMW M760i P60 Greyblack
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Portland metro

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Your utopia would have DuPont, for example, dumping even more toxic chemicals into rivers all over the country while we breathe in leaded gasoline fumes. Capitalism cannot solve these type of problems. Corporations will deny the harm until well past the point it is completely obvious. See, tobacco, leaded gasoline, PFAS, etc. Sorry, I do not want to go back to the early 1900s.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...tudy-rcna19028
This doesn't need to be a binary solution. Mandating EV is a binary solution.

regulating lead out of gas was not a binary solution, you could and can still buy gas, and other additives and engine design features filled the gap created by its removal. Impact to the consumer was nearly non-existent, and required little infrastructure. It also profoundly impacted the targeted environmental goal.

EV's are a small part of the C02 Problem, and the proposed solution still generates a great deal of C02. And that doesn't even begin to discuss the cost.


It's a spectrum of choices and options, vs rewards and results. De-leading fuel was an easy choice and had good results. Ditching ICE with the current plan isn't easy or free of pain, and barely tickles the goal.
Appreciate 2
KRS_SN11282.50
Cos270592.00
      03-01-2023, 01:02 PM   #1358
SoCal_NSX
Major
SoCal_NSX's Avatar
2170
Rep
1,278
Posts

Drives: 981CS/428/is250/JLU Rubicon
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Center of the Universe

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
People care because this 12 year goal is already impacting them.
In what ways?

How is Chevy announcing that they will be full electric by 2035 impacting you?

Or some states announcing they won't sell new ICE vehicles starting in 2035?


This isn't some sort of conspiracy by Bill Gates to reduce the population, this is about taking steps in the right direction to help preserve our planet for our great grandchildren and beyond ....you should have seen what the air looked like in LA in the 70's and 80's before we finally started taking steps in the right direction

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/3134/r...efits-by-2030/

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

https://content.sierraclub.org/evguide/myths-vs-reality
Appreciate 2
chris7196690.50
BGM-M3COMP2308.50
      03-01-2023, 01:16 PM   #1359
M5Rick
Lieutenant General
M5Rick's Avatar
51635
Rep
16,941
Posts

Drives: M5 F10 DCT Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
The ones in that house next to Westminster Bridge are F* mad, they want to get rid of PHEV's too.
Appreciate 1
KRS_SN11282.50
      03-01-2023, 01:27 PM   #1360
chad86tsi
Captain
chad86tsi's Avatar
1498
Rep
755
Posts

Drives: 2019 BMW M760i P60 Greyblack
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Portland metro

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post
In what ways?
Too many to list here, so know this is only some of them:
  • ICE development already curtailed for many brands, limiting choices
  • Utilities are having to expend resources they don't' have spare to start planning for load they can't serve, with energy they don't have. This costs money today. It is impacting repair-and-maintain strategies, today. It is diluting the skills and manpower resources today.
  • Utilities are having to increase prices to pay for this dream. the 2 biggest power utilities in my state just raised rates ~15%, and cited this as one of the many justifications. Paying today for what will happen tomorrow.
  • taxes and budgets are being re-adjusted at federal, state, and local levels to pay for this future, by collecting taxes today.
  • Infrastructure is being built with tax payer dollars today, to serve a use case model for this mandated future.
  • Tax payers are subsidizing the purchase of EV's. That's my money, and yours.
  • Government entities like utilities, are taking focus from other social initiatives to make room for this one. Because this initiative does not generate tax revenue, it -is- a zero-sum game.
  • Some markets are already having to curtail power usage during peak-demand events, and that includes EV's. Adding EV's to the load causes this to happen more, and more often. It's already happening.

Quote:
How is Chevy announcing that they will be full electric by 2035 impacting you?
See list above

Quote:
Or some states announcing they won't sell new ICE vehicles starting in 2035?
See list above

Quote:
This isn't some sort of conspiracy by Bill Gates to reduce the population, this is about taking steps in the right direction to help preserve our planet for our great grandchildren and beyond ....you should have seen what the air looked like in LA in the 70's and 80's before we finally started taking steps in the right direction

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/3134/r...efits-by-2030/

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

https://content.sierraclub.org/evguide/myths-vs-reality
Taking steps is moving to Hybrid tech first.

We need to take these steps. We don't need to be stupid about it.

Last edited by chad86tsi; 03-01-2023 at 01:34 PM..
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 01:43 PM   #1361
SoCal_NSX
Major
SoCal_NSX's Avatar
2170
Rep
1,278
Posts

Drives: 981CS/428/is250/JLU Rubicon
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Center of the Universe

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Too many to list here, so know this is only some of them:
  • ICE development already curtailed for many brands, limiting choices
  • Utilities are having to expend resources they don't' have spare to start planning for load they can't serve, with energy they don't have. This costs money today. It is impacting repair-and-maintain strategies, today. It is diluting the skills and manpower resources today.
  • Utilities are having to increase prices to pay for this dream. the 2 biggest power utilities in my state just raised rates ~15%, and cited this as one of the many justifications. Paying today for what will happen tomorrow.
  • taxes and budgets are being re-adjusted at federal, state, and local levels to pay for this future, by collecting taxes today.
  • Infrastructure is being built with tax payer dollars today, to serve a use case model for this mandated future.
  • Tax payers are subsidizing the purchase of EV's. That's my money, and yours.
  • Government entities like utilities, are taking focus from other social initiatives to make room for this one. Because this initiative does not generate tax revenue, it -is- a zero-sum game.
  • Some markets are already having to curtail power usage during peak-demand events, and that includes EV's. Adding EV's to the load causes this to happen more, and more often. It's already happening.



See list above



See list above



Taking steps is moving to Hybrid tech first.

We need to take these steps. We don't need to be stupid about it.

You talk about all the economics, but you drive a 13 mpg vehicle

you don't think the oil cartels are manipulating gas prices?

Like I said, don't worry about it....you be able to buy and drive gas guzzling ICE vehicles for the rest of your life, unless you are still driving in like 2093
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 02:14 PM   #1362
chris719
Major General
6691
Rep
6,800
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Might want to check the air in LA now vs before regulation was introduced, to start. Visibility was ridiculously bad.
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 02:20 PM   #1363
chris719
Major General
6691
Rep
6,800
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Capitalism exactly solves these types of problems.
Not without regulation, because ideal capitalism does not exist. I am pro capitalism, it just needs intelligent application of regulation. We can disagree as to what is intelligent or appropriate, but anyone who thinks a zero regulation environment will behave in a ideal manner is delusional.
Appreciate 2
Cos270592.00
ASAP9157.00
      03-01-2023, 02:23 PM   #1364
omasou
Colonel
omasou's Avatar
United_States
1973
Rep
2,968
Posts

Drives: BMWs
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: US

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2023 BMW S1000RR  [0.00]
2022 BMW F900XR  [0.00]
2022 BMW X6 40i  [0.00]
2020 BMW M2C  [9.50]
Never wanted one. Never will.
Appreciate 1
M5Rick51634.50
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:52 PM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST