Road and Track: "We Aren't BMW's Target Market Anymore"

[________]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

All this over a grill......I don't exactly like the design either....but you don't see me being all enraged by it.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Instead of complaining on a forum, speak with the wallets.

But that is the problem, they still sell, so anyone that hates the grills has to be mad, because their precious brand doesn't need to listen to them.

If you want my honest assessment, the negativity of the grill caused publicity to increase even further, causing more sales. Not exactly the Streisand effect, but something akin to it. In actual fact, that was probably BMW's goal, to create a unique design that causes publicity (positive or negative), to stand out and increase sales. The BMW M lineups in particular, aren't high volume, so the more attention, the better.

Nobody is talking about grilles. Not the article posted, not anyone else. Just you.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

The 80s were a different time. To want an 80s built car on the road today, you would be driving less a nice car, and more an unsafe car.

I still think you're missing what's being lamented here. I'll put it another way.

80's, 90's, 00's, etc: 3 Series were kick ass cars compared to Accords and Camries. People who actually liked driving cars preferred them because they were communicative and engaging.

Today: 3 Series is interchangeable with Accord and Camry. Drive your toaster to work. Yawn.

No one is in love with the older cars, specifically. It's the engagement, "driver's car" thing that's been lost. BMW is not trying any more. If you like their current cars now, you'd LOVE what the current cars could be like if they hadn't quit.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Onesie

Nobody is talking about grilles. Not the article posted, not anyone else. Just you.

Who said we are simply limited to the content of 'one article' in this discussion? I sense 'forum police' in some of your comments.

I'm going to comment on the grilles. From reading and observation, if the grilles were more acceptable to many of the enthusiasts, there wouldn't be half as much negativity to the brand.

Many on the BMW forums say they are leaving the brand because of the looks, specifically due to the latest grilles. Sad that something that many buyers see as a fresh and modern look is causing such polarised reactions.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

No one is in love with the older cars, specifically. It's the engagement, "driver's car" thing that's been lost. BMW is not trying any more. If you like their current cars now, you'd LOVE what the current cars could be like if they hadn't quit.

The question is how do we define what that 'engagement' would be in the current context of bigger and heavy vehicles, where NVH takes on a much more important role in design and build?

BTW, it wasn't only BMW that had 'engagement' back in the 70s and 80s, here in the UK. I ran a Triumph Dolomite Sprint which compared to the E21 320. Both provided driver involvement.

[tracer bullet]

I think defining engagement is still the same. It can still be done with today's vehicles including EPS. BMW doesn't want to, they've said so. We used to wonder why they couldn't figure out how, then we learned they didn't want to. Sure it may be different than in the past, but they aren't even trying. This is the issue.

[TheMaxXHD]

Idk what to say. Enjoy the vehicles you drive? It's not this complex of an issue. If you like it, who cares? If you don't like it, who cares? Everyone is different.

This applies to any car, whether it be a BMW or Honda.

Also lol to whoever thinks a BMW 3 series is interchangeable with a Honda Accord. Have you driven a Honda Accord? I have, it drives nothing like a modern BMW. A good car yes, but BMW 3 series good, nah.

Sometimes I wonder how many of you have driven cars that aren't in the luxury or performance class. Go drive a modern Subaru with a CVT, see what you are missing. I have. I guarantee you, the BMW 3 series trounces it.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I think defining engagement is still the same. It can still be done with today's vehicles including EPS. BMW doesn't want to, they've said so. We used to wonder why they couldn't figure out how, then we learned they didn't want to. Sure it may be different than in the past, but they aren't even trying. This is the issue.

I've read a lot of the "quotes" which get translated as "they don't want to". Is it really that simple, or are there different user priorities?

Being with the 5-series from the first generation E12, thought I'd simply pick at random a UK performance motor magazine and see how they describe the latest generation 5-series, the G30.

From EVO article; "BMW 5-series review - is this the best saloon in the world?"

"BMW's most complete 5-series ever, there are almost no compromises in this exceptional executive".

From the preview...

Ride and handling - Always a dynamic benchmark in the class, the G30 builds on the previous model’s talents, while continuing to improve on comfort and refinement.

https://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/5-series

Ride and handling
BMW has long set the benchmark for sweet handling executive cars, and the new G30 is no different. It’s ultimately more about infinite capability than excitement but BMW took no chances with the latest 5-series to ensure it had a breadth of abilities that would surpass all rivals.

As a base, BMW has upgraded the 5-series’ core structure by stiffening the areas around the sub assemblies and suspension mounting points. This added stiffness has been combined with a reduction in weight and a lower centre of gravity, imbuing the 5-series with an impressively sorted chassis.

Like all cars, the choice of wheel and tyre does have an effect on the overall ride and handling, with 18-inch wheels the sweet spot size-wise as they still have enough sidewall to absorb the worst impacts without transferring them into the cabin. Bigger wheels look better, but their large increase in unsprung mass is violently felt every time one of them drops into a pothole.

The optional adaptive dampers improve the ride quality further, but also tighten up the body control when speeds rise and ‘Sport mode’ is selected. The front end has a surprisingly tenacious appetite for apex’, with light, but accurate electric steering giving you confidence to carry considerable speed into corners. The rest of the car follows faithfully, with excellent body control over even the roughest UK road surfaces.

What's not to like?

[sspade]

Thankfully, committed to offering the manual gearbox through (or until) 2030.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Today: 3 Series is interchangeable with Accord and Camry. Drive your toaster to work. Yawn.

Most of your post was on point, but this is a GROSS OVERSTATEMENT, so much so as to be basically untrue and not based in reality.

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Also lol to whoever thinks a BMW 3 series is interchangeable with a Honda Accord. Have you driven a Honda Accord? I have, it drives nothing like a modern BMW. A good car yes, but BMW 3 series good, nah.

Sometimes I wonder how many of you have driven cars that aren't in the luxury or performance class. Go drive a modern Subaru with a CVT, see what you are missing. I have. I guarantee you, the BMW 3 series trounces it.

This an accurate statement.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

You have set up a false premise and then knocked it down. Many if not most of us who dislike the new Bugs Bunny grille are not wedded to the old grille. We just want a front end that doesn't make us puke.

Not at all. My observation was spot on. It just bothers you. That’s OK. People can’t agree on everything. Does it bother you that you are considerably outnumbered worldwide on your opinion of the grille in question? I mean we are talking about record sales for this new G80/82 series. They are crushing it. So obviously, your opinion is the extreme minority on this. Unless, of course you’re one of those people who are going to accuse others of buying a very expensive car they secretly feel is ugly. You’re not going to do that are you?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Who said we are simply limited to the content of 'one article' in this discussion? I sense 'forum police' in some of your comments.

I'm going to comment on the grilles. From reading and observation, if the grilles were more acceptable to many of the enthusiasts, there wouldn't be half as much negativity to the brand.

Many on the BMW forums say they are leaving the brand because of the looks, specifically due to the latest grilles. Sad that something that many buyers see as a fresh and modern look is causing such polarised reactions.

In all seriousness, you really think a whole bunch of people are going to drop a brand that they claim to have loved for decades all because of a handful of cars looking differently than they did in the past? Talk about an adult temper tantrum. I just can’t believe that. I believe “enthusiasts” can say they don’t like this current series, but drop the whole brand over one car? Seems a tad bit extreme if not immature to me. It also seems very unrealistic. Either way BMW definitely isn’t going to care because their sales have never been higher especially of the aforementioned hated grille car.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The message of my nostalgic post is not a comparison between modern BMWs and Classic BMWs.

But with the advent of the time machine, I'd take a showroom-fresh E28 M5 any day over any current BMW.

10-4. I most certainly wouldn’t. Just like I wouldn’t take a 1985 state of the art television over the same of today. It’s just no comparison. Technologies are not even close. Don’t get me wrong a brand new E28 would be bad ass to have but I certainly wouldn’t choose it over an F90. No way.

[heavyD^2]

Can we put the whole steering thing to bed. The reason BMW uses more powerful EPAS motors is because of safety nothing more. Jason Cammisa explains the tradeoffs here.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...hing-you-want/

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Patton250

In all seriousness, you really think a whole bunch of people are going to drop a brand that they claim to have loved for decades all because of a handful of cars looking differently than they did in the past? Talk about an adult temper tantrum. I just can’t believe that. I believe “enthusiasts” can say they don’t like this current series, but drop the whole brand over one car? Seems a tad bit extreme if not immature to me. It also seems very unrealistic. Either way BMW definitely isn’t going to care because their sales have never been higher especially of the aforementioned hated grille car.

BMW lost me with the new “dashboard” that is nothing more than a stuck on iPad. They didn’t even bother to do any design. The Chevy Bolt has a better dashboard than the LCI G20. However, the lack of design isn’t the main issue. The main issue is that everything is now touchscreen and the shitty ergonomics that go along with that.

In addition to the driving dynamics, many of us valued BMW’s form over function ergonomics and the fact that they didn’t follow all of the sheep over the shiny new tidbits cliff. As with BMW’s traditional (and at least somewhat iconic to them) amber dashboard lighting, BMW engineers paid attention to designing controls in a driver focused way. Of course, the fact is that began to change with the E90 and the loss of the dashboard curved toward the driver. I remember saying the first time I saw the E90 dashboard at the Dallas car show, “this looks like a Buick.” I accepted the new design and I loved my E90 330i, but the dashboard design was never as good as the dashboard in my two E46s.

Thank God they left the iDrive controller alone. iDrive undoubtedly adds multiple layers of options to navigate through, but at least there’s a physical way to navigate it. It is virtually impossible to precisely and safely make choices and changes using a touchscreen you have to reach to touch while you’re engaged in driving.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Most of your post was on point, but this is a GROSS OVERSTATEMENT, so much so as to be basically untrue and not based in reality.

That could be a fair statement. I've driven them all more than once but never back to back. Aaaaaand may have stepped into the 330i (loaner) with a bias, I can admit. I'd like to think not but it's more than possible. I've always come away completely unimpressed (330i) but perhaps if I'd driven them back to back I would think differently.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

BMW lost me with the new “dashboard” that is nothing more than a stuck on iPad. They didn’t even bother to do any design. The Chevy Bolt has a better dashboard than the LCI G20. However, the lack of design isn’t the main issue. The main issue is that everything is now touchscreen and the shitty ergonomics that go along with that.

In addition to the driving dynamics, many of us valued BMW’s form over function ergonomics and the fact that they didn’t follow all of the sheep over the shiny new tidbits cliff. As with BMW’s traditional (and at least somewhat iconic to them) amber dashboard lighting, BMW engineers paid attention to designing controls in a driver focused way. Of course, the fact is that began to change with the E90 and the loss of the dashboard curved toward the driver. I remember saying the first time I saw the E90 dashboard at the Dallas car show, “this looks like a Buick.” I accepted the new design and I loved my E90 330i, but the dashboard design was never as good as the dashboard in my two E46s.

Thank God they left the iDrive controller alone. iDrive undoubtedly adds multiple layers of options to navigate through, but at least there’s a physical way to navigate it. It is virtually impossible to precisely and safely make choices and changes using a touchscreen you have to reach to touch while you’re engaged in driving.

iDrive 8 looks great, can't wait to get my M340i with it. The E90 dashboard is awesome, no complaints haven driven it for the past 3-4 years (other than the cup holders, WHY BMW would you design the front cupholders like that). And so does the E46 dashboard in pictures (never driven it). They all have their own character. I don't see any one as being better or worse, just different, obviously the G20 LCI is very different.

After that, it is just personal preference, which is entirely opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

iDrive 8 looks great, can't wait to get my M340i with it. The E90 dashboard is awesome, no complaints haven driven it for the past 3-4 years (other than the cup holders, WHY BMW would you design the front cupholders like that). And so does the E46 dashboard in pictures (never driven it). They all have their own character. I don't see any one as being better or worse, just different, obviously the G20 LCI is very different.

After that, it is just personal preference, which is entirely opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

The quality of the iDrive 8 display is great! Much clearer and more vibrant than iDrive 7. I don’t know if it’s “officially” HD, but it sure is for all intents and purposes. It’s the design that is shit.

The cupholders in the E90 are like that because until the F25 X3 cupholders were an afterthought for BMW. Their opinion was “why does someone who’s driving a car need a cupholder?” European E9x’s didn’t have cupholders. There was a smooth trim piece in that space. Notice the cupholders in the E46. Right in front of the center armrest and behind the shifter. With a manual transmission, which was quite common, you couldn’t really shift and have a drink in the cupholder. They were in the same place in the E36, except they were an option and they were basically a retrofit to fit in a space that wasn’t designed for them. Cupholders were a concession to the U.S. market. Finally, with the F25 X3, BMW actually took cupholders into account as they designed the interior. They had BMWNA send over 7 Eleven Big Gulp cups to use in their designing.

Edit: I did a little research. It appears E36 cupholders were not actually available from BMW. They were an aftermarket add-on and there was more than one style. None of them very good.

E36 cupholder
E46 cupholder

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Not at all. My observation was spot on. It just bothers you. That’s OK. People can’t agree on everything. Does it bother you that you are considerably outnumbered worldwide on your opinion of the grille in question? I mean we are talking about record sales for this new G80/82 series. They are crushing it. So obviously, your opinion is the extreme minority on this. Unless, of course you’re one of those people who are going to accuse others of buying a very expensive car they secretly feel is ugly. You’re not going to do that are you?

You will be surprised how many ACCEPTED the car as is just because they have incentives or are uosed to the BMw or BMW universe.
I have two friends who lease two of them. They hate the grill but accpeted the car for different reasons, but none of them because they love it. In fact they are not even car people. Just users.

and, if you are pretentious and really into cars, it is impossible not to see the cheap aproach that they have, from the monoblock screen, to the lack of providing a proper rear bulged door to match that rear fender on the M3. What an eyesore and crap that is!!
I wouldn’t keep one for free! It makes me feel like Joe from the bodyshop did something to have me going until I buy my next car…

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

iDrive 8 looks great, can't wait to get my M340i with it. The E90 dashboard is awesome, no complaints haven driven it for the past 3-4 years (other than the cup holders, WHY BMW would you design the front cupholders like that). And so does the E46 dashboard in pictures (never driven it). They all have their own character. I don't see any one as being better or worse, just different, obviously the G20 LCI is very different.

After that, it is just personal preference, which is entirely opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Tastefuly Different is one thing, distastefuly visibly screwed on the dash is another. That is not design. That is cheap afterthought, no different than the guys in the 90s when they were installing the Alpine screens on cars…
What a crap that screen is. And I want a car to drive not a cinema on wheels.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The quality of the iDrive 8 display is great! Much clearer and more vibrant than iDrive 7. I don’t know if it’s “officially” HD, but it sure is for all intents and purposes. It’s the design that is shit.

The cupholders in the E90 are like that because until the F25 X3 cupholders were an afterthought for BMW. Their opinion was “why does someone who’s driving a car need a cupholder?” European E9x’s didn’t have cupholders. There was a smooth trim piece in that space. Notice the cupholders in the E46. Right in front of the center armrest and behind the shifter. With a manual transmission, which was quite common, you couldn’t really shift and have a drink in the cupholder. They were in the same place in the E36, except they were an option and they were basically a retrofit to fit in a space that wasn’t designed for them. Cupholders were a concession to the U.S. market. Finally, with the F25 X3, BMW actually took cupholders into account as they designed the interior. They had BMWNA send over 7 Eleven Big Gulp cups to use in their designing.

Edit: I did a little research. It appears E36 cupholders were not actually available from BMW. They were an aftermarket add-on and there was more than one style. None of them very good.

E36 cupholder
E46 cupholder

Geez, and I thought the E90 cupholders were meh, those make the E90 cupholders look like a revolutionary design.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Tastefuly Different is one thing, distastefuly visibly screwed on the dash is another. That is not design. That is cheap afterthought, no different than the guys in the 90s when they were installing the Alpine screens on cars…
What a crap that screen is. And I want a car to drive not a cinema on wheels.

Integration and not an afterthought doesn't mean it is good. The MB EQS for example, completely integrated, and the car was practically built around the dash. That said, I find the software looks dated and not a very easily navigable UI (imo, software can be very opinionated, just like apple vs android). Atleast BMW kept the iDrive controller. A fully integrated dash like in the EQS is all touch. It can look good being fully integrated, but if the actual software design doesn't add up, all you got is a nice looking screen that mind as well not exist.

I do agree BMW could have integrated it more into the dashboard. That said, it is harder to integrate a horizontal screen instead of a vertical screen because logically the vertical screen can simply take over the entire center stack that was already designed to have something there. On the flip side, horizontal screens IMO make more sense for vehicles, in part because a vertical screen means you have to look down more, whereas a horizontal screen closer to the windshield helps the driver peripherally lose less sight of the road.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

That could be a fair statement. I've driven them all more than once but never back to back. Aaaaaand may have stepped into the 330i (loaner) with a bias, I can admit. I'd like to think not but it's more than possible. I've always come away completely unimpressed (330i) but perhaps if I'd driven them back to back I would think differently.

I recently had both a G20 330i xDrive and a G22 430i xDrive, neither an M Sport, as loaners for about five days for each of them. I would not buy either of them. The steering actually was like a Buick. Even in Sport mode. I was surprised, because I’ve driven numerous G20 330i’s at various BMW driving events. But, I think those cars all had the M Sport pkg and that made a difference in the steering. I’m not completely up on what steering changes the M Sport pkg includes (or not), but, as I said, I was surprised by the steering in both of those loaners.

I never have thought the F3x steering was as bad as all the gnashing of teeth would lead one to believe. But, maybe that’s because I drove an E90 with active steering for eleven years. I remember when I first drove my E90 330i the steering felt odd for just a little while, but I got used to it very quickly.