Road and Track: "We Aren't BMW's Target Market Anymore"

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I recently had both a G20 330i xDrive and a G22 430i xDrive, neither an M Sport, as loaners for about five days for each of them. I would not buy either of them. The steering actually was like a Buick. Even in Sport mode. I was surprised, because I’ve driven numerous G20 330i’s at various BMW driving events. But, I think those cars all had the M Sport pkg and that made a difference in the steering. I’m not completely up on what steering changes the M Sport pkg includes (or not), but, as I said, I was surprised by the steering in both of those loaners.

I never have thought the F3x was as bad as all the gnashing of teeth would lead one to believe. But, maybe that’s because I drove an E90 with active steering for eleven years. I remember when I first drove my E90 330i the steering felt odd for just a little while, but I got used to it very quickly.

Don't quote me, but I think the M-sport pkg on the 330i adds Variable Sport Steering, which is probably the difference you were feeling.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Don't quote me, but I think the M-sport pkg on the 330i adds Variable Sport Steering, which is probably the difference you were feeling.

You are correct. I’m sure that was the difference.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

I think it will be amazing when they get it out of beta design and have it integrated into the dash

That, and add some physical buttons.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

It is virtually impossible to precisely and safely make choices and changes using a touchscreen you have to reach to touch while you’re engaged in driving.

Word! If you happen to drive on a winding road with potholes and asphalt patches all around you'll become a Shakin' Stevens and most probably will not be able to aim and hit the desired 0.6 in touching area properly without trial and error or having eyes and mind completely away from the windshield for multiple seconds.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

You will be surprised how many ACCEPTED the car as is just because they have incentives or are uosed to the BMw or BMW universe.
I have two friends who lease two of them. They hate the grill but accpeted the car for different reasons, but none of them because they love it. In fact they are not even car people. Just users.

and, if you are pretentious and really into cars, it is impossible not to see the cheap aproach that they have, from the monoblock screen, to the lack of providing a proper rear bulged door to match that rear fender on the M3. What an eyesore and crap that is!!
I wouldn’t keep one for free! It makes me feel like Joe from the bodyshop did something to have me going until I buy my next car…

Have you considered applying at BMW? Then you could tell their design engineers how stupid they are for the new grille(s). Of course they would probably cite the insane sales numbers to you, including new to BMW customers, to counter your argument so then you would just have to inform them you know more about these thing then they do. It just might work.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Patton250

10-4. I most certainly wouldn’t. Just like I wouldn’t take a 1985 state of the art television over the same of today. It’s just no comparison. Technologies are not even close. Don’t get me wrong a brand new E28 would be bad ass to have but I certainly wouldn’t choose it over an F90. No way.

Well just to point out the obvious, considering the USA went completely digital broadcast TV in June 2009 (and is auctioning off the original analog TV bandwidth), a 1984 TV wouldn't work for you unless you were still watching Back to the Future on your 1984 VHS tape deck.

But the E28 can still burn modern gasoline and drive on modern roads, so it is still a completely usable device for spirited driving. What technologies does the E28 lack that make it not useable in December 2022? The F90 weighs 1,200 pounds more, lacks a manual transmission, and stays planted due to computer chassis control and AWD more than driver input.

I prefer to drive a car that takes skill to drive rather than a large wallet to lease one.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Okay, I'll bite. How many bought into BMW for the M5 models? Such a small market, compared to the 'lesser' models. I've driven the E28 M5, yes a positive experience, but not as practical for me (or most BMW 5-series drivers of the period), as a well spec'd E28 528i. Even back then, with appreciation for BMW engineering and driving dynamics, many of us chose our BMW for practicality and creature comforts.

Isn't it the same today? Comparing to the past is, IMO, definitely a nostalgic experience, a bit of the "good old days" reminiscing. The motoring scene has changed on so many counts. Weight, safety, emissions, size, etc. Yes, I get the feeling for 1970 - 1980s models, I also have the memories of how BMW stood above the crowd for driving pleasure.

For me, it is different than many who know the past, a new E28 M5 or a new F90 M5? I'd be taking the F90.

The guy I was responding to made it about the M5, not me. I'd take a showroom-fresh E28 5-series of any trim over a F90 (asuming a time machine was invented that can transport both car and human - rather than it being a Deloran as the time machine itself ).

[///MPhatic]

One more nail in our coffin.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well just to point out the obvious, considering the USA went completely digital broadcast TV in June 2009 (and is auctioning off the original analog TV bandwidth), a 1984 TV wouldn't work for you unless you were still watching Back to the Future on your 1984 VHS tape deck.

But the E28 can still burn modern gasoline and drive on modern roads, so it is still a completely usable device for spirited driving. What technologies does the E28 lack that make it not useable in December 2022? The F90 weighs 1,200 pounds more, lacks a manual transmission, and stays planted due to computer chassis control and AWD more than driver input.

I prefer to drive a car that takes skill to drive rather than a large wallet to lease one.

Well you live in a free country brother. It gives you the right to state your opinion and also gives you the right, assuming you can afford it, to go buy an E28. The same freedom also gives me the right to have a different opinion than you. I’ll take state of the art and modernization first. Now having said that, I definitely wouldn’t be opposed to owning both. I would just choose the modern version first. I assume you know that you can make an F90 rear wheel drive only and remove all traction control, right? Granted it doesn’t have a manual version and that’s too bad. The more options the better. I’m sure we both agree on that one. I am huge into watches. I know lots of people that would prefer a 1960s submariner over a 2022. I wouldn’t. Now that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t own a 1960s sub. In fact I have before. I think you get my point. It’s all good.

[storm3163]

Originally Posted by Blue87

Many manufacturers are moving towards EV and I don't really want one, especially not until charging station network has caught up and we don't have to worry about blackouts etc. I planned on keeping this M50i for only 3 or 4 years but I may hold out just a little bit longer to see what the future holds. I don't mind being connected and definitely don't mind technology but do prefer a continued focus on fun to drive vehicles.

My BMW dealer had told me BMW, plans to have an ICE and EV version of almost every model the make. So for its the 4 series, 7 series and maybe the soon to be 5 series

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The guy I was responding to made it about the M5, not me. I'd take a showroom-fresh E28 5-series of any trim over a F90 (asuming a time machine was invented that can transport both car and human - rather than it being a Deloran as the time machine itself ).

Who here has the money for an F90? If one have the money for an F90, they are the minority of car enthusiasts, and the minority of the minority of the world. Not exactly Lamborghini minority, but yeah. I'd even almost say the same thing for the G80 as well.

But this isn't about finance, it is about the cars themselves. Buy and drive the cars you like, not what some random person on the internet likes or dislikes. When you are spending especially BMW money, you want to make sure you are buying a vehicle you will enjoy, potentially for the next decade. Yes use reviews and other people's experiences, but as with anything in life, there is always a degree of bias and personal preference involved.

If the new cars don't suit your needs or wants, then find another car, maybe an Audi or MB or whatever other car, does it hurt to consider alternatives??? I considered the alternatives before going with the M340i. I considered the Audi A4/S4, I consider the MB C300 (not the C43, they didn't have the new one announced yet), I considered a Tesla Model 3, I considered the i4 and X3, I considered a cheaper Subaru like the Legacy or WRX. Don't be tied to a brand or badge.

I said this before and will say this again, the worst thing one can do is spend a lot of money on a car they end up not liking.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Well you live in a free country brother. It gives you the right to state your opinion and also gives you the right, assuming you can afford it, to go buy an E28. The same freedom also gives me the right to have a different opinion than you. I’ll take state of the art and modernization first. Now having said that, I definitely wouldn’t be opposed to owning both. I would just choose the modern version first. I assume you know that you can make an F90 rear wheel drive only and remove all traction control, right? Granted it doesn’t have a manual version and that’s too bad. The more options the better. I’m sure we both agree on that one. I am huge into watches. I know lots of people that would prefer a 1960s submariner over a 2022. I wouldn’t. Now that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t own a 1960s sub. In fact I have before. I think you get my point. It’s all good.

Sarcasm man, sarcasm; using a 1984 TV in 2022 is pointless since there are no broadcast channels for the TV tuner to pick up. I don't even think 13 years past the cutover date you can even find a conversion box (like the Government was giving out for free in 2009).

But lower the defensiveness, please. I never said YOU can't decide to buy a F90, so relax. I do know the computer controlled chassis can be set to RWD only and the stability control turned off. My counter is if you want a RWD car, buying one that has the equipment in it for front drive and then turning it off just adds unnecessary weight to the front end and probably dulls the steering feedback on a RWD car. The F90 needs AWD because it has too much scrotum-enlarging HP that some of the power needs to be thrown at the front wheels because the rear tires can plant that much power to the pavement.

All I said was "I" prefer a smaller, lighter, less powerful (E28) chassis that I know is engaging to drive. I'd rather hear the solid tappets of a smooth M88 in-line 6, mated to a manual transmission. I'd be bored with the F90 piped-in engine sound, playing around with the iDrive and letting the car drive itself.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Who here has the money for an F90? If one have the money for an F90, they are the minority of car enthusiasts, and the minority of the minority of the world. Not exactly Lamborghini minority, but yeah. I'd even almost say the same thing for the G80 as well.

But this isn't about finance, it is about the cars themselves. Buy and drive the cars you like, not what some random person on the internet likes or dislikes. When you are spending especially BMW money, you want to make sure you are buying a vehicle you will enjoy, potentially for the next decade. Yes use reviews and other people's experiences, but as with anything in life, there is always a degree of bias and personal preference involved.

If the new cars don't suit your needs or wants, then find another car, maybe an Audi or MB or whatever other car, does it hurt to consider alternatives??? I considered the alternatives before going with the M340i. I considered the Audi A4/S4, I consider the MB C300 (not the C43, they didn't have the new one announced yet), I considered a Tesla Model 3, I considered the i4 and X3, I considered a cheaper Subaru like the Legacy or WRX. Don't be tied to a brand or badge.

I said this before and will say this again, the worst thing one can do is spend a lot of money on a car they end up not liking.

I did just buy a new car in July, a Ford Bronco. Trust me, it does not drive like BMW; but neither do current BMWs. Lol.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

I said this before and will say this again, the worst thing one can do is spend a lot of money on a car they end up not liking.

So true.

Reflecting on some of the content in this thread, we do have to acknowledge many of us have really enjoyed BMW models in the past. I am one of those individuals.

Where the difference seems to be, some would like BMW to have remained much the same, simply modern production versions.

I've often thought of "what if?" (Not just for BMW). What if we could have much simpler vehicles these days. Leave off loads of the things we have come to accept as normal. Dump all the extra weight and complications of powered windows and locking, electric seat adjustments, etc. Slim our cars down, accept much smaller vehicles, smaller wheels, less unsprung weight, etc., etc. We could have much more dynamic models, even in the same body. The current 3-series could be much like an early generation 5-series.

Do we need a 4-door model, or could we go back to the 2-door of the E21 or E30? Run a 2-series in stripped back form.

Is there really a profitable market for many of such basic models, with potentially better driving dynamics? I'm not convinced, even if a handful of BMW enthusiasts would take up the offer.

For most of us, we simply find a BMW in the range which suits us best, get on and enjoy our choice. Or we move on to what we feel is better.

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Geez, and I thought the E90 cupholders were meh, those make the E90 cupholders look like a revolutionary design.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

...snip...

Edit: I did a little research. It appears E36 cupholders were not actually available from BMW. They were an aftermarket add-on and there was more than one style. None of them very good.

E36 cupholder
E46 cupholder

I'll see your E36/46 cupholders, and raise you an E30 one:


E30s didn't come with a middle arm rest (their only fault IMO) so you had to add them on. The armrest came with slide out cup holders that faced backwards and cute little plastic cups. The idea was to not interfere with e brake or shifter. I still have the cups somewhere!

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

...snip...

I do agree BMW could have integrated it more into the dashboard. That said, it is harder to integrate a horizontal screen instead of a vertical screen because logically the vertical screen can simply take over the entire center stack that was already designed to have something there. On the flip side, horizontal screens IMO make more sense for vehicles, in part because a vertical screen means you have to look down more, whereas a horizontal screen closer to the windshield helps the driver peripherally lose less sight of the road.

I like vertical for navigation. Lets you see further down the road at a glance. But that's the only reason.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

So true.

Reflecting on some of the content in this thread, we do have to acknowledge many of us have really enjoyed BMW models in the past. I am one of those individuals.

Where the difference seems to be, some would like BMW to have remained much the same, simply modern production versions.

I've often thought of "what if?" (Not just for BMW). What if we could have much simpler vehicles these days. Leave off loads of the things we have come to accept as normal. Dump all the extra weight and complications of powered windows and locking, electric seat adjustments, etc. Slim our cars down, accept much smaller vehicles, smaller wheels, less unsprung weight, etc., etc. We could have much more dynamic models, even in the same body. The current 3-series could be much like an early generation 5-series.

Do we need a 4-door model, or could we go back to the 2-door of the E21 or E30? Run a 2-series in stripped back form.

Is there really a profitable market for many of such basic models, with potentially better driving dynamics? I'm not convinced, even if a handful of BMW enthusiasts would take up the offer.

For most of us, we simply find a BMW in the range which suits us best, get on and enjoy our choice. Or we move on to what we feel is better.

It really is an interesting question. I think if BMW did a Retromod E30 with a naturally aspirated in-line 6, manual transmission, both RWD and AWD (the E30 had such a variant) that looked very close to an E30 (semi shark nose, big greenhouse, forward opening hood, flat deck lid, and a flat roof, it would sell in the 100,000 range. Keep the iDrive TV screen out of it, keep the simple analog gauges, and virtually copy the dashboard. Other companies have been successful with the Retromod formula: VW (New Beatle), Ford (Mustang and Bronco), CryCo (Challenger/Charger), Chevy (Camaro).

My personal experience with the Bronco I just bought proves it. Ford can't build enough, and some people have waited 2 years or longer from time of reservation to delivery (I waited 22 months for mine) and loads and loads of internet car forum drama and still are happy as shit they waited. A Ford for God's sake, a Ford (sarcasm - I've owned 8 Fords prior to the Bronco). I bought the lowest tech version I could, but it still has a stupid touch screen, and the phone interface sucks. The gauges are from the 1980's K-car, and there is no tactile feel to the buttons (you have to visually search for them). BUT, it has vinyl seats, wash out floors, the doors and roof come off, and most important... a manual transmission. The FoMoCo corporate 300 HP 2.3L EcoBoost is a decent engine, the truck can Go Over Any Terrain, and is just plain cool.

New cars are too tech oriented for my taste. Best case, can't some manufacturer just offer a tech-delete package. I'd have paid extra for my Bronco not to have the stupid TV screen and real analog sweeping-needle gauges.

I know if BMW built a Retromod E30, I'd buy one without hesitation.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Is there really a profitable market for many of such basic models, with potentially better driving dynamics? I'm not convinced, even if a handful of BMW enthusiasts would take up the offer.

I think there is a market out there. The problem is, it is a market that is probably bigger than a limited production run, but smaller than a full multi-year production run as part of the normal lineup.

Limited production runs won't satisfy that market because they would be far too expensive for the average enthusiast who just wants a nostalgic trip down memory lane and with good driving dynamics with some modern luxuries. However, the market is likely way too small to justify a full multi-year, or even full single year production run financially for BMW.

Also, people seem to forget that they can't 100% copy the dynamics from decades ago. There has to weight added for electronics and other things. Like for instance, a backup camera is legally required now in the US. They have to have a backup camera and a display of sorts for it. There are certain things they must add to meet regulations. These add to the complexity of the car and to the weight issue. All cars in the modern era have gotten heavier for this reason.

It is why the BMW E36 was ~3000lbs and the new BMW M4 CSL is still a whopping ~3600lbs despite everything that they have stripped from it. Sure the engine power gains since have helped reduce that effect, but it still effects the driving dynamics.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

BMW lost me with the new “dashboard” that is nothing more than a stuck on iPad. They didn’t even bother to do any design. The Chevy Bolt has a better dashboard than the LCI G20. However, the lack of design isn’t the main issue. The main issue is that everything is now touchscreen and the shitty ergonomics that go along with that.

In addition to the driving dynamics, many of us valued BMW’s form over function ergonomics and the fact that they didn’t follow all of the sheep over the shiny new tidbits cliff. As with BMW’s traditional (and at least somewhat iconic to them) amber dashboard lighting, BMW engineers paid attention to designing controls in a driver focused way. Of course, the fact is that began to change with the E90 and the loss of the dashboard curved toward the driver. I remember saying the first time I saw the E90 dashboard at the Dallas car show, “this looks like a Buick.” I accepted the new design and I loved my E90 330i, but the dashboard design was never as good as the dashboard in my two E46s.

Thank God they left the iDrive controller alone. iDrive undoubtedly adds multiple layers of options to navigate through, but at least there’s a physical way to navigate it. It is virtually impossible to precisely and safely make choices and changes using a touchscreen you have to reach to touch while you’re engaged in driving.

Having owned an E30, E90, and E46, where the E30 and the E90 overlapped in ownership and the E46 overlapped with the E90, I'd like to make some comments. I do agree with your observation the E90's dash kind of defocuses on the driver and it sort of curves from the center towards both the driver and passenger. The E46 doesn't and does have some more of a focus on the driver. However, I think the E30 has the most ergonomic driver setup ever designed by any manufacturer. The E46 doesn't hold a candle to the E30. The E30 HVAC controls were both visually intuitive and tactile intuitive; you never even needed to look at them to adjust the airflow direction, temperature, or fan speed (the E28 was the same way). Look at the E21, E23, E30, and E28, all had extremely driver-focused controls. Newer BMWs probably sacrifice that focus in difference to manufacturing costs where a less focus dash allows for less costly right-hand drive and left-hand drive versions. Just a guess.

Alright, off to an E90 battery change... I hate it. LOL.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Sarcasm man, sarcasm; using a 1984 TV in 2022 is pointless since there are no broadcast channels for the TV tuner to pick up. I don't even think 13 years past the cutover date you can even find a conversion box (like the Government was giving out for free in 2009).

But lower the defensiveness, please. I never said YOU can't decide to buy a F90, so relax. I do know the computer controlled chassis can be set to RWD only and the stability control turned off. My counter is if you want a RWD car, buying one that has the equipment in it for front drive and then turning it off just adds unnecessary weight to the front end and probably dulls the steering feedback on a RWD car. The F90 needs AWD because it has too much scrotum-enlarging HP that some of the power needs to be thrown at the front wheels because the rear tires can plant that much power to the pavement.

All I said was "I" prefer a smaller, lighter, less powerful (E28) chassis that I know is engaging to drive. I'd rather hear the solid tappets of a smooth M88 in-line 6, mated to a manual transmission. I'd be bored with the F90 piped-in engine sound, playing around with the iDrive and letting the car drive itself.

No defensiveness I promise. Cross my heart lol.

Let’s look at your last sentence. I highlighted it. I’d rather have both options. The F90 gives you that. I agree that piping in exhaust noise through the speakers is pretty stupid but that has more to do with certain countries noise regulations then it does new technologies.

There are lots of small, light zippy cars that you can buy. It’s just a full-size sedan from BMW ain’t one of them. Look into a Miata, or perhaps a Mini. Very lightweight. Both of them are probably faster than a stock E28. :-)

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

...snip...
However, I think the E30 has the most ergonomic driver setup ever designed by any manufacturer. The E46 doesn't hold a candle to the E30. The E30 HVAC controls were both visually intuitive and tactile intuitive; you never even needed to look at them to adjust the airflow direction, temperature, or fan speed (the E28 was the same way).
...snip...

THIS ALL DAY^^^^^

I've posted here before how much I love the E30 dash and controls. Simply can't be improved upon! Two dials, three sliders, and two buttons covered all your HVAC needs.

Don't forget those skinny A-pillars... swoon! And being able to look over your shoulder to see out the rear quarter... no need for a camera on an E30! And no oil leaks!!!! Oh how I miss those cars.



Now get off my lawn!!!

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

So true.

Reflecting on some of the content in this thread, we do have to acknowledge many of us have really enjoyed BMW models in the past. I am one of those individuals.

Where the difference seems to be, some would like BMW to have remained much the same, simply modern production versions.

I've often thought of "what if?" (Not just for BMW). What if we could have much simpler vehicles these days. Leave off loads of the things we have come to accept as normal. Dump all the extra weight and complications of powered windows and locking, electric seat adjustments, etc. Slim our cars down, accept much smaller vehicles, smaller wheels, less unsprung weight, etc., etc. We could have much more dynamic models, even in the same body. The current 3-series could be much like an early generation 5-series.

Do we need a 4-door model, or could we go back to the 2-door of the E21 or E30? Run a 2-series in stripped back form.

Is there really a profitable market for many of such basic models, with potentially better driving dynamics? I'm not convinced, even if a handful of BMW enthusiasts would take up the offer.

For most of us, we simply find a BMW in the range which suits us best, get on and enjoy our choice. Or we move on to what we feel is better.

There's a reason why I posted a picture of the new S1000RR and have chimed in on these types of threads about wishing the executive team at Motorrad were calling the shots at the auto group. The S1000RR by and large has been getting better and better with each generation. It didn't have all the tech it does now when introduced and you'll find very few that would fault the bike for how much tech is in there now. It's part of the reason I bought my 22 K67. The bike was are revolution when it was first introduced where it was still pretty "analog". Then the evolution came in phases. Advancements to the electronics brought up gains in the stability/traction control, the ability to do both clutchless upshifts/downshifts, electronically controlled suspension damping, and new for the 2023 year the addition of slide/drift and stoppie/endo control.

When I do my track days, I do them with California Superbike School. They have a fleet of RR's and will have the new 2023's when I do my track days at VIR next year. Keith Code said the incidents of crashes fell dramatically when he moved from the Kawasaki ZX-6Rs to the RRs. A huge jump in HP yet the number of crashes dropped. That's a testament to the engineering that has gone into these bikes. I've ridden every generation of RR since its inception and knew something was special with the K67 the moment I hit turn 1 at VIR coming out of the pits on my sighting lap. A year later and I set my fastest ever lap time there knocking off .3 seconds from my previous all time best.

Not all the tech for the K67 is track oriented. The fact I can pair my phone to the dash to get displayed turn by turn GPS instruction via the BMW app. The fact it has cruise control. These little things are integrated seamlessly into the overall package where this bike can also be a decent road bike too.

The addition of the aero package for 2023 has been met with some criticism in terms of its looks. Some comparing the front end look to the Predator of Arnold Schwarzenegger fame. But it's still not as butt ugly as the current vehicles being churned out by the auto group. At least the aero and other changes are being done to go after the WSBK championship. None of that can be said with what is being done on the auto group side.

So with Motorrad being a much smaller division of BMW, why do they seem to be able to still get things right while the bigger brother keeps flubbing?