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      02-28-2024, 11:48 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by 335xs2dinan View Post
Will this make a difference in resale values?
Good question. I think it will but will take time before it does.
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      02-28-2024, 11:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
This is absolutely correct... 2015-2016 was the turning point. Every BMW my family has owned since then has never seen a service shop outside of maintanence.
And the turning point when BMWs started driving like Buicks.
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      02-28-2024, 12:10 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
And the turning point when BMWs started driving like Buicks.
Are you saying the F80, F87, F90 are Buicks? They are all far more hardcore than any of their predecessors (stiffer and even subframes bolted to chassis). The X3 and X5 got miles better in every single way as well... i could argue the current M340i is the best 3 yet... i cannot defend the 5 and 7 nor any of the EVs but those are becoming more and more niche cars.

I'll take the M340i w its EPS and virtually flawless reliability with the B58, ZF8, stiffest chassis of any 3 ever and an overall better vehicle than the complete honk that was the E46 or E90... worst quality cars ever built w the least reliable N54, N55 ever... along w the utterly subpar interior build quality of the E46 and its subframe issues... i can only think of 2 BMWs from the earlier 2000s that I would want which are the E92 M3 (only because V8)and E46 M3 in Manual (only because light)... you can keep the non mcars lol. I'll take today's cars all day.
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      02-28-2024, 12:15 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Are you saying the F80, F87, F90 are Buicks? They are all far more hardcore than any of their predecessors (stiffer and even subframes bolted to chassis). The X3 and X5 got miles better in every single way as well... i could argue the current M340i is the best 3 yet... i cannot defend the 5 and 7 nor any of the EVs but those are becoming more and more niche cars.

I'll take the M340i w its EPS and virtually flawless reliability with the B58, ZF8, stiffest chassis of any 3 ever and an overall better vehicle than the complete honk that was the E46 or E90... worst quality cars ever built w the least reliable N54, N55 ever... along w the utterly subpar interior build quality of the E46 and its subframe issues... i can only think of 2 BMWs from the earlier 2000s that I would want which are the E92 M3 (only because V8)and E46 M3 in Manual (only because light)... you can keep the non mcars lol. I'll take today's cars all day.
Funny you single out the E46 6 speed and E92 as two of the best pre-2016 cars BMW has made. I completely agree because I owned both of these cars and they are among the most memorable BMWís in my almost 30 year history of driving these cars. While I loved my E90 cars (I had 4 including the M3), they were not reliable until my 2011 335d (which was excellent) and 2013 E92. I canít count how many X3/X5/X6 cars I have had and the current generation is among the best ever. I would say I have a slight preference for the F15/16 generation over the current one, but itís a slight preference. As for the G20 chassis 3/4 series, I donít own one, but have plenty of seat time in the 330i and M340 setups and it is an excellent car for the money, particularly the 330i m sport. At just under 50k, the 330i m sport is simply the best sporty sedan you can buy today for the money.
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      02-28-2024, 12:26 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Schn3ll View Post
BMW Road Test score higher than Porsche... laughable.

Disqualified results just on that alone. Watch their Youtube channel to realize who is reviewing these cars and it will tell you all you need to know.
Their road-test scores are not purely based on driving engagement/fun to drive/handling. It factors in the ergonomics, how easy the infotainment is to use, how comfortable the car is, how usable the cargo space is etc.

It's pretty easy to believe BMW has a higher score based on this type of criteria. Consumer Reports is evaluating how well the car performs for everyday driving, and that is what the road-test score represents. It's not meant to solely gauge performance or how fun a car is to drive.
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      02-28-2024, 12:26 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp View Post
Funny you single out the E46 6 speed and E92 as two of the best pre-2016 cars BMW has made. I completely agree because I owned both of these cars and they are among the most memorable BMWís in my almost 30 year history of driving these cars. While I loved my E90 cars (I had 4 including the M3), they were not reliable until my 2011 335d (which was excellent) and 2013 E92. I canít count how many X3/X5/X6 cars I have had and the current generation is among the best ever. I would say I have a slight preference for the F15/16 generation over the current one, but itís a slight preference. As for the G20 chassis 3/4 series, I donít own one, but have plenty of seat time in the 330i and M340 setups and it is an excellent car for the money, particularly the 330i m sport. At under 50k, the 330i m sport is simply the best sporty sedan you can buy today.
yea 100%... i had 2 x E92 335 and 1 x 135i... N54 and N55... these cars were relatively fun to drive but I would never own them again... they are honks of junk and this is why we almost don't see any of them on the streets anymore. I could argue the F series Non M 3 and 5 were not spectacular but then the G Generation completely fixed them. Just like mentioned above... your 2 cars are the only ones from BMWs yesterday that I would remotely consider unless of course we start to move into the 90s and we say E39 M5 w 6sp because again V8 and from the 80s E30 M3 for obvious reasons. I would not want to have anything to do with even an E60 M5 nor the regular 5 because they are also honks of junk.
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      02-28-2024, 12:35 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Blue18M5 View Post
SOO many forums upset over this. But I keep trying to tell them I have owned BMWs for years without issues or major repairs. No one believes me.
Sure but plenty of issues detailed in these forums on older BMW's. Have you heard of BMW's Customer care package which was the result of a lawsuit by BMW owners againts BMW? Consider yourself as not the norm.
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      02-28-2024, 12:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Autobacs View Post
My buddy who was a MERC dealership TECH said the same thing, as Consumer Reports. Hell even Scotty Kilmer says so.
I can attest to Mercedes being complete junk.

After having a bunch of BMWs, I got a 2022 E450. I've had 5 unscheduled services visits for various items in less than 1 year. One of the issues is a thumping sound feel. The first 3 times I brought it in, I asked them to address this and they said there was nothing wrong. The 4th time, they acknowledge something was off, but didn't have time to diagnose it because they let the car sit on the lot for 2 weeks before looking at it, and I had to leave for a trip. Now the car is currently at another dealer who also acknowledged the problem, and the car has been there for 2.5 weeks while they supposedly wait for a special tool to diagnose it because their standard checks turned up nothing.

Every visit to Mercedes has resulted in the car being there for a minimum of 2 weeks, sometimes the issues would be fixed, other times they tell me the items were fixed only to find they weren't...(driver seat was creaking, they had to replace a bracket, broke massage seat. Refused to take car home until they fix massage seat. They call me a week later telling me the seat works. Drive to dealer, sit in car, turn on massage and it's not working. They have it for another week to fix). This has happened with 5 services visits to 4 separate dealers...so Mercedes clearly has a serious quality control issue, and poor dealer network.

I've had a lot of BMWs and they've been mostly reliable. My experience with BMW dealers has been night and day better than the experience I have had with Mercedes. I've found BMW services centers to be pretty decent for a dealer, and very professional
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      02-28-2024, 12:55 PM   #75
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Also interesting is Audi's rating. Several years ago they had a publicly stated goal of being the highest selling German luxury brand, or something like that. But while they show 8 of 9 models tested being recommended, their owner satisfaction is dropping according to CR. This doesn't help sell more cars.
I own a 2016 Audi S6 V8TT with extensive mods, HP is now about 630 from the OMEs 450. It's quality and reliability have been top notch given proper maintenance and preventive mods because of the added output. I have had not a single issue because of Audis manufacturing quality so far. This was built it in Germany.

I do not stress the engine and drivetrain for extended periods of time, but it sure is great to have all that capability when you need to pass other vehichles.

I hope that the X5 M60i that I'am about to pick up next week, turns out as reliable as my S6 and holds mods as well. It will surely be a great upgrade even in stock form from our current family trip SUV, a 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 4X4, I'll keep it for offroad trips, because I dot want to scratch the X5s paint.
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      02-28-2024, 02:12 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
yea 100%... i had 2 x E92 335 and 1 x 135i... N54 and N55... these cars were relatively fun to drive but I would never own them again... they are honks of junk and this is why we almost don't see any of them on the streets anymore. I could argue the F series Non M 3 and 5 were not spectacular but then the G Generation completely fixed them. Just like mentioned above... your 2 cars are the only ones from BMWs yesterday that I would remotely consider unless of course we start to move into the 90s and we say E39 M5 w 6sp because again V8 and from the 80s E30 M3 for obvious reasons. I would not want to have anything to do with even an E60 M5 nor the regular 5 because they are also honks of junk.
Plenty of these so-called junkers on the roads here in Germany.

Also, the saying is "hunk of junk." Hunk, as in a big lump. A honk is a sound.
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      02-28-2024, 02:16 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Neusser View Post
Plenty of these so-called junkers on the roads here in Germany.

Also, the term is "hunk of junk." Hunk, as in a big lump.
Of course... because 95% of them are small displacement turbo diesels that do 0-60 in 9 seconds... and are driven primarily on hwys from town to town... upwards of 200-300k miles. They are also very heavily maintained because your labor costs to do so are fractions of what they are here in the US... most have turbo rebuilds or replacements done for cheap.
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      02-28-2024, 02:25 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Of course... because 95% of them are small displacement turbo diesels that do 0-60 in 9 seconds... and are driven primarily on hwys from town to town... upwards of 200-300k miles. They are also very heavily maintained because your labor costs to do so are fractions of what they are here in the US... most have turbo rebuilds or replacements done for cheap.
They aren't that much cheaper. I'm an American and have been in Germany for quite a while. I drove German when I was in the States, too, and the difference isn't that great.

If anything, you save so much on purchase, that the maintenance costs break out even vs. German cars.

My 540 was over 90k new, and it is a mid-spec car. Head to Scandanavia (for example) and newish BMWs are the preserve of the rich only. Europe ain't cheap for nice cars.
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      02-28-2024, 03:06 PM   #79
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I manage twisty roads at high speed with my i5 M60. You would be surprised if you drove one. I did an extended test drive before buying.
I sat in one at the dealership today, waiting on my M4 to be serviced and it just feels so awkward inside the car is huge on the outside but the inside you feel a lot more cocooned. What I donít like and I have not liked this. In any of the new BMWs is the weird screen sitting behind the steering wheel. It just feels strange.
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      02-28-2024, 03:26 PM   #80
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I sat in one at the dealership today, waiting on my M4 to be serviced and it just feels so awkward inside the car is huge on the outside but the inside you feel a lot more cocooned. What I donít like and I have not liked this. In any of the new BMWs is the weird screen sitting behind the steering wheel. It just feels strange.
That seems to be the new normal, which is infinitely better than an iPad stuck above the center console. My Jaguar had electronic gauges configurable within a traditional dashboard and a separate screen for climate, infotainment, etc. which was built into the dash above the center console. Better looking but I suppose it is easier to service when itís just a screen bolted to the dash.
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      02-28-2024, 09:42 PM   #81
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I have always wanted to buy an AMG car and have test driven the A45s, C63s, E63s a couple of times each at different years and the suspension has ruined it every single time, they are all just impossible to use as daily cars, Audi feels way too cheap and macdonaldy type, so naturally BMW has found its way among the discerned as it is reliable, stable and relatively open source with all its software allowing for a gazillion of amendments and the only really proper ecosystem for aftermarket parts.

BMW stock suspension is pretty bad also but not in such an impossible manner as the AMG range and more importantly you can change it with many more different options than just KW's(also very stiff) or same such but like Tractive, Intrax, Nitron, MCS and this same thing applies to every other relevant part like wheels, aero, turbos, brakes, etc.

I have tried going to Mercedes and Audi but there seems to be a rejection going on.

The Audi's dealers I paid the whole car to, would not honour deposit terms on warranty terms the first time I tried to buy an RS4 so I walked out and took the money back and the second time I bought one again they crashed it at one of the parking's bollards the day before handover as the sales guy took it from the parking lot into the garage for a wash and basic check basically.

That was the Matt Watson 6-month tester*. I just walked out of the sale again when they showed me pics of the rear wing torn like a slice of pie and the funny part is that they would not even budge on the price. So both times burned by the Audi dealer and for good reason as I have driven several rs4's and rs6's since and I prefer the M cars by a large margin. The Audi cars are a bit old granda types of cars like the 80 used to carry all the grandkids. Good engines but always something missing from the soup, either a leather dashboard or good suspension or gearbox or aftermarket modifiability.

The Mercedes it has always been the AMG car itself rejecting bodies after a few miles.

Getting back-tired during test-drives? I have driven the M3 for 10-12 hours straight and several other long trips in Europe with it and the F10 M5 since 2015 and hours on the track without any back issues. I drive the AMGs slowly for an hour and I'm in physical back pain the next day.

Like seriously? how is mercedes continuing this folly totally unhinged?

Over more than one and two generations of cars.

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      02-29-2024, 07:13 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Are you saying the F80, F87, F90 are Buicks? They are all far more hardcore than any of their predecessors (stiffer and even subframes bolted to chassis). The X3 and X5 got miles better in every single way as well... i could argue the current M340i is the best 3 yet... i cannot defend the 5 and 7 nor any of the EVs but those are becoming more and more niche cars.

I'll take the M340i w its EPS and virtually flawless reliability with the B58, ZF8, stiffest chassis of any 3 ever and an overall better vehicle than the complete honk that was the E46 or E90... worst quality cars ever built w the least reliable N54, N55 ever... along w the utterly subpar interior build quality of the E46 and its subframe issues... i can only think of 2 BMWs from the earlier 2000s that I would want which are the E92 M3 (only because V8)and E46 M3 in Manual (only because light)... you can keep the non mcars lol. I'll take today's cars all day.
I'm saying the F30 drives like a Buick. Everything past the F30 in a 3/4-Series is not available with a manual transmission in the US unless you spend $80K on an M, so they are Buicks as well from my POV. My E90 with the N52 has 423,000 miles on it and is the longest-lasting BMW of the five I've owned since 1988. I had an E30 since new. The E30 is considered one of BMW's most well-built, long-lasting, and most trouble-free models it produced. I say the E90 is better than the E30, but it is very close. I will also say the E86 Z3 with the N52 may be the best BMW ever. Mine has been trouble free for the 97,000 miles out of the 120,000 miles it has on it, I bought it at 23,000 miles when it was 8 years old.

I have three (3) non-M cars, so you are correct, I have kept them.
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      02-29-2024, 07:26 AM   #83
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I'm saying the F30 drives like a Buick. Everything past the F30 in a 3/4-Series is not available with a manual transmission in the US unless you spend $80K on an M, so they are Buicks as well from my POV. My E90 with the N52 has 423,000 miles on it and is the longest-lasting BMW of the five I've owned since 1988. I had an E30 since new. The E30 is considered one of BMW's most well-built, long-lasting, and most trouble-free models it produced. I say the E90 is better than the E30, but it is very close. I will also say the E86 Z3 with the N52 may be the best BMW ever. Mine has been trouble free for the 97,000 miles out of the 120,000 miles it has on it, I bought it at 23,000 miles when it was 8 years old.

I have three (3) non-M cars, so you are correct, I have kept them.
Ah - you're one of those that likes ancient tech... well no problem, just continue to drive and maintain those cars... leave the newer stuff for us... i'll say though, if you are saying they all drive like buicks, when your current BMWs expire, just buy a prior gen Toyota, they will be massively reliable like you ask and will also drive like Buicks and theoretically there should be no difference, right?
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      02-29-2024, 02:08 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Ah - you're one of those that likes ancient tech... well no problem, just continue to drive and maintain those cars... leave the newer stuff for us... i'll say though, if you are saying they all drive like buicks, when your current BMWs expire, just buy a prior gen Toyota, they will be massively reliable like you ask and will also drive like Buicks and theoretically there should be no difference, right?
As an owner of an E90 335i (N55, Performance Package)…
There’s a reason why E90s and F30s are worth practically the same on the used market. It’s because most F30s pre-LCI are junk. Not worth the BMW roundel. Exception might be a correctly-optioned F30 335i. But how awful is it that you had to option out an F30 just to get it to somewhat feel like a BMW?

The N20 is better off being used as an anchor for a ship, the F30s chassis is too floaty, etc. The LCI fixed many of these issues with the added chassis reinforcements, Bxx motors, and software updates to the steering, but it’s telling that it took BMW nearly 8 years to fix the F30. The F30 is much like the W210 was for Mercedes, compared to the W124. When you have near-perfection, really the only way to go is downhill. The G20 was a much better effort than the F30, thank goodness.

The E90 is hardly ancient. It was ahead of it’s time, and still gets decent mileage, handles extremely well (again, better than its successor), has classic looks, and is extremely reliable (even the N54 isn’t as bad as people make it out to be. I should know, I owned one until 150K miles).

The G chassis is nice, but quite synthetic. Compared to other contemporaries, it may be a “drivers car,” but let’s not kid ourselves, an E90 is still a better sports sedan than an F30 or a G20. Now is it a better luxury sedan? Well that’s debatable, and given the delta in tech, probably not. But if one wanted a luxury sedan, wouldn’t you go for something with a 3-pointed star on the grill? Put another way, it’s an asset for an F30 or G20 to have active cruise and lane departure — it’s the kind of car you want to drive itself at times. An E90? Way too much fun to have a computer drive for you!

I have access to a 997.2. The E90s steering is right on par with the 997. An F30 or G20? No. Not even close.

This all to say that a driver-oriented BMW is no longer the 3er - the Z4 and the 2er are really the last two model lines that really embrace the BMW ethos. Not saying that the rest of the lineup isn't better than their competitors, but it’s a shame to see how much further ahead BMW used to be with respect to the competition.

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      02-29-2024, 02:13 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Ah - you're one of those that likes ancient tech... well no problem, just continue to drive and maintain those cars... leave the newer stuff for us... i'll say though, if you are saying they all drive like buicks, when your current BMWs expire, just buy a prior gen Toyota, they will be massively reliable like you ask and will also drive like Buicks and theoretically there should be no difference, right?
Where have I said anything about reliability? I've owned BMWs from the 1980's, 1990's, and 2000's. I've never had any reliability issues with them. 1M+ miles and just twice one needed a flatbed ride home. Toyotas don't last as long as BMWs.

If ancient tech means something without iDrive and driver aids, yup, that's me. I bought ultimate driving machines. I don't need the car to tell me there's a car in the mirror. Lol.
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      02-29-2024, 02:49 PM   #86
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As an owner of an E90 335i (N55, Performance Package)…
There’s a reason why E90s and F30s are worth practically the same on the used market. It’s because most F30s pre-LCI are junk. Not worth the BMW roundel. Exception might be a correctly-optioned F30 335i. But how awful is it that you had to option out an F30 just to get it to somewhat feel like a BMW?

The N20 is better off being used as an anchor for a ship, the F30s chassis is too floaty, etc. The LCI fixed many of these issues with the added chassis reinforcements, Bxx motors, and software updates to the steering, but it’s telling that it took BMW nearly 8 years to fix the F30. The F30 is much like the W210 was for Mercedes, compared to the W124. When you have near-perfection, really the only way to go is downhill. The G20 was a much better effort than the F30, thank goodness.

The E90 is hardly ancient. It was ahead of it’s time, and still gets decent mileage, handles extremely well (again, better than its successor), has classic looks, and is extremely reliable (even the N54 isn’t as bad as people make it out to be. I should know, I owned one until 150K miles).

The G chassis is nice, but quite synthetic. Compared to other contemporaries, it may be a “drivers car,” but let’s not kid ourselves, an E90 is still a better sports sedan than an F30 or a G20. Now is it a better luxury sedan? Well that’s debatable, and given the delta in tech, probably not. But if one wanted a luxury sedan, wouldn’t you go for something with a 3-pointed star on the grill? Put another way, it’s an asset for an F30 or G20 to have active cruise and lane departure — it’s the kind of car you want to drive itself at times. An E90? Way too much fun to have a computer drive for you!

I have access to a 997.2. The E90s steering is right on par with the 997. An F30 or G20? No. Not even close.

This all to say that a driver-oriented BMW is no longer the 3er - the Z4 and the 2er are really the last two model lines that really embrace the BMW ethos. Not saying that the rest of the lineup isn't better than their competitors, but it’s a shame to see how much further ahead BMW used to be with respect to the competition.
Not going to sit here and argue early gen F series vs E series because I 100% will say that they are both junk.

I owned 3 E series cars... 2 x 335i and 1 x 135i... so I had numerous N54s and N55s in my stable... i will tell you right now that at the time they were the finest sporty sedans and coupes on earth... but that was a whopping 15 years ago now and things have drastically changed. First off - the reliability of those cars was absolutely horrid... the N54 is indeed as bad as people say, I have experience to back that up. Second - the suspension tied to those first gen runflats was unbearable and the car had severe traction issues with that junk rear end and lack of a true rear limited slip diff. It was nearly impossible to throw into a slide for that reason... the steering was very solid in terms of feel but the non M racks were also incredibly slow. The non M f series was made softer so it was even worse... but at the time the Lci 340i came around, it was a better car in every way.

Now, once we get into the G series everything is on another level... the M340i is stiffer, faster, more reliable and does everything better. You may argue its heavier and steering is less involving but the reality is that it will mop the older cars around any track or autocross you choose because the chassis is that much better.
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2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
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      02-29-2024, 03:29 PM   #87
Steelguin
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I'm thinking of trading my M2 for a AMG CLE 53
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      02-29-2024, 03:45 PM   #88
noemon
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Have you test-driven it?

What do you make of the suspension?

I haven't tried the CLE.
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