Road and Track: "We Aren't BMW's Target Market Anymore"

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Patton250

No defensiveness I promise. Cross my heart lol.

Let’s look at your last sentence. I highlighted it. I’d rather have both options. The F90 gives you that. I agree that piping in exhaust noise through the speakers is pretty stupid but that has more to do with certain countries noise regulations then it does new technologies.

There are lots of small, light zippy cars that you can buy. It’s just a full-size sedan from BMW ain’t one of them. Look into a Miata, or perhaps a Mini. Very lightweight. Both of them are probably faster than a stock E28. :-)

I just traded in my 2018 530e for a Genesis GV60 Performance BEV. Fits part of your criteria: it is small (177.4" long). Obviously not light as it has a 77.4 KWH battery pack. But it does go like a bat out of hell (429 HP; 483 if you press the boost button on the steering wheel).

One of my complaints about BMW was that it forced you into a larger car if you wanted luxury. That is why I went, reluctantly, to a 530e as I like a smaller car. Genesis has done what BMW refuses to do: my small car not only goes like a bat out of hell but it has Nappa leather, ultrasuede headliner, easy entry/easy exit. HUD, SXM, a 1400 watt 17 speaker Bang & olafsen radio, etc.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Patton250

No defensiveness I promise. Cross my heart lol.

Let’s look at your last sentence. I highlighted it. I’d rather have both options. The F90 gives you that. I agree that piping in exhaust noise through the speakers is pretty stupid but that has more to do with certain countries noise regulations then it does new technologies.

There are lots of small, light zippy cars that you can buy. It’s just a full-size sedan from BMW ain’t one of them. Look into a Miata, or perhaps a Mini. Very lightweight. Both of them are probably faster than a stock E28. :-)

I've have a Z3. For a reason...

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I think the E30 has the most ergonomic driver setup ever designed by any manufacturer. The E46 doesn't hold a candle to the E30. The E30 HVAC controls were both visually intuitive and tactile intuitive; you never even needed to look at them to adjust the airflow direction, temperature, or fan speed (the E28 was the same way). Look at the E21, E23, E30, and E28, all had extremely driver-focused controls.

Actually, many refer to the E34 as the zenith of BMW interior design. Similar to, but an improvement on the E30. A dash that won't crack and a more integrated A/C system.

[Blue87]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I just traded in my 2018 530e for a Genesis GV60 Performance BEV. Fits part of your criteria: it is small (177.4" long). Obviously not light as it has a 77.4 KWH battery pack. But it does go like a bat out of hell (429 HP; 483 if you press the boost button on the steering wheel).

One of my complaints about BMW was that it forced you into a larger car if you wanted luxury. That is why I went, reluctantly, to a 530e as I like a smaller car. Genesis has done what BMW refuses to do: my small car not only goes like a bat out of hell but it has Nappa leather, ultrasuede headliner, easy entry/easy exit. HUD, SXM, a 1400 watt 17 speaker Bang & olafsen radio, etc.

Definitely agree here. This is my first BMW and I'm fairly annoyed that a 100k X5 can't be had with soft-close doors, heated cooled cup holder or cooling box, button operated rear seats, button controlled child door locks, dual visors for each side, better interior fit/finish etc. The Genesis lineup will for sure be considered next time and hopefully manufacturers will have stepped their game up by then, although BMW seems to be trending towards continued decontenting (okay, not a real word) of its models.

[F32Fleet]

Performance has become a commodity even before regulatory push towards electrification so in order for BMW to survive they must cater to a wider audience.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Blue87

Definitely agree here. This is my first BMW and I'm fairly annoyed that a 100k X5 can't be had with soft-close doors, heated cooled cup holder or cooling box, button operated rear seats, button controlled child door locks, dual visors for each side, better interior fit/finish etc. The Genesis lineup will for sure be considered next time and hopefully manufacturers will have stepped their game up by then, although BMW seems to be trending towards continued decontenting (okay, not a real word) of its models.

The problem for Hyundai is that their ICE are hot garbage, but if you only lease or go BEV it becomes moot and someone else's problem.

[GetBent]

I've owned 10 BMW's over the years (1996 e36 328i, 2001 e39 530i, 1999 e46 328i, 2004 e46 M3, 2006 e90 330i, 2000 e39 M5, 2008 e60 M5 v10, 2014 X5d, 2001 e39 M5 Dinan S2, 2020 f87 M2C). While I am only 1 month into ownership of the M2C, the BMW's I've owned that have captured "The Utlimate Driving Machine" brand best for me are:

1. 1996 e36 328i - held the road like it was on rails!
2. Both e39 M5's - especially the Dinan S2 Red Rocket
3. 2004 e46 M3 - Raw & Raspy road course machine
4. 2008 e60 M5 - v10 top end terror
5. 2020 f87 M2 - turbos strike like White Lightning!

I sure hope that BMW stays true to the brand in the future and continues to make more of these type of cars.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Blue87

This is my first BMW and I'm fairly annoyed that a 100k X5 can't be had with soft-close doors, heated cooled cup holder or cooling box, button operated rear seats, button controlled child door locks, dual visors for each side, better interior fit/finish etc. The Genesis lineup will for sure be considered next time and hopefully manufacturers will have stepped their game up by then, although BMW seems to be trending towards continued decontenting (okay, not a real word) of its models.

So, how does it drive?

I realize that's not that important these days. The Ultimate Streaming Machine?

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

The problem for Hyundai is that their ICE are hot garbage, but if you only lease or go BEV it becomes moot and someone else's problem.

Add KIA to that

[bmw1racer]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

THIS ALL DAY^^^^^

I've posted here before how much I love the E30 dash and controls. Simply can't be improved upon! Two dials, three sliders, and two buttons covered all your HVAC needs.

Don't forget those skinny A-pillars... swoon! And being able to look over your shoulder to see out the rear quarter... no need for a camera on an E30! And no oil leaks!!!! Oh how I miss those cars.



Now get off my lawn!!!

Ahh, what a great interior. I remember the E30s I've had over the years: Driver-oriented dash and simple, purposeful controls (and window controls in the console ). And the glove box was cavernous.

Those were the days...

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by bmw1racer

Ahh, what a great interior. I remember the E30s I've had over the years: Driver-oriented dash and simple, purposeful controls (and window controls in the console ). And the glove box was cavernous.

Those were the days...

I miss our E30s so much... Lots of cars since, but none quite as meaningful.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by GetBent

I've owned 10 BMW's over the years (1996 e36 328i, 2001 e39 530i, 1999 e46 328i, 2004 e46 M3, 2006 e90 330i, 2000 e39 M5, 2008 e60 M5 v10, 2014 X5d, 2001 e39 M5 Dinan S2, 2020 f87 M2C). While I am only 1 month into ownership of the M2C, the BMW's I've owned that have captured "The Utlimate Driving Machine" brand best for me are:

1. 1996 e36 328i - held the road like it was on rails!
2. Both e39 M5's - especially the Dinan S2 Red Rocket
3. 2004 e46 M3 - Raw & Raspy road course machine
4. 2008 e60 M5 - v10 top end terror
5. 2020 f87 M2 - turbos strike like White Lightning!

I sure hope that BMW stays true to the brand in the future and continues to make more of these type of cars.

You can stop hoping because that ship has long sailed.

Looking at recent trend, each generation of BMW has become softer isolating you more from the road. Compared to other brands, BMW is moving further away from Porsche and closer to Lexus in terms of driving dynamics.

Looking at recent BMW marketing, they come out with ads mocking their fan base of older generation of BMW enthusiasts as being dinosaurs and citing the benefits of their new direction where cars are more like appliances of consumer electronics.

Stick a fork in it, BMW is done with you (and me).

[ASAP]

Discounting the EVs for a second which is indeed a true direction change for the industry as a whole... what vehicles does BMW make right now that are subpar to their older cars?

If you mean a little more insulated and heavy... well that's true across the board for all manufacturers.

If you mean lacking driving dynamics, that's not true for the 3, 4, 5, x3, x5, m3, m5... they are by far the most dynamic cars in their class... 7 series and up, that's an irrelevant point.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I still think you're missing what's being lamented here. I'll put it another way.

80's, 90's, 00's, etc: 3 Series were kick ass cars compared to Accords and Camries. People who actually liked driving cars preferred them because they were communicative and engaging.

Today: 3 Series is interchangeable with Accord and Camry. Drive your toaster to work. Yawn.

No one is in love with the older cars, specifically. It's the engagement, "driver's car" thing that's been lost. BMW is not trying any more. If you like their current cars now, you'd LOVE what the current cars could be like if they hadn't quit.

You really think an M340i is interchangaeble with an Accord or Camry?

A 382 HP RWD car with the finest automatic on earth and solid weight distribution is interchangable with a fwd 4 banger and a CVT lol? Some people r crazy here... just bcuz it no longer weighs 3300 lbs due to safety regulations and no longer has a hydraulic steering system that tons of people lamented... its suddenly an accord lol. I owned a 2009 135i and that car was a piece of garbage compared to the current M340i and it has ALL of the qualities you search for.

[Rafichicago]

It’s said to see direction this thread is going. Seems like whatever was before it’s worse than new because of old technology. Seems like whatever car manufacturer tells its customers what’s good for them it’s what should be agreed upon. Because new cars are newer, more powerful, filled with technological gimmicks they’re automatically better than the previous ones, because they’re newer. Meanwhile E46 M3 in tip top condition just to name one of examples with manual fetch 70-$100K. Those prices happen because those cars do not have direct replacement. Same for Honda S2000. No replacement for them. New cars are not for everyone. Me included. I don’t appreciate their newest styling. Bmw went from marketing it’s cars as ultimate driving machines to joy of driving to whatever their latest slogan is. Manufactures do what’s best for shareholders. Their main goal is to make money. They need to make more. In order to do that it’s either through raising prices or sell more units. Just because they sell more doesn’t mean better product. It’s just more appealing to the masses. Exactly the reason why enthusiasts are unhappy with the end product. My F90 is fine car. Does everything great. It hides weight pretty good and accelerates fantastically. Is it very good? Sure is. Would it be better if it was 400lbs lighter ? Absolutely. There’s always room for improvement.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You really think an M340i is interchangaeble with an Accord or Camry?

You missed where I referred specifically to 330i loaners I've had. They are about as inspiring as my toaster. And where I said I've also driven the others and they were similarly uninspiring. I didn't say the other cars were better, just that they were comparable toasters. M340i would be expected to be better of course, we agree there.

Either way the gist remains - they aren't the driver's cars they used to be. Not their bread & butter models anyhow.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

You missed where I referred specifically to 330i loaners I've had. They are about as inspiring as my toaster. And where I said I've also driven the others and they were similarly uninspiring. I didn't say the other cars were better, just that they were comparable toasters. M340i would be expected to be better of course, we agree there.

Either way the gist remains - they aren't the driver's cars they used to be. Not their bread & butter models anyhow.

If you mean a base base 330i, then perhaps... but no enthusiast or anyone interested in driving will choose that... that's made to be a lease car.

If you add the right wheel / tire option and add the M Sport pack to the 330i... again it won't be comparable to Accord... it will be just like an m340i with just less power.

If we are talking base base non sport pack 330i, 530i etc... then yea, maybe they are boring but they were never meant for people interested in driving... technically that applies even to porsche with the base macan, cayenne etc... however i think even the base X3 is extremely dynamic for an SUV.

[///d]

in my opinion I think performance enthusiasts are a dying breed. Sure, theres younger generations that are still into automobile performance, but from what I've seen it's become far and few between. The increase in fuel prices, increase in restrictions and laws, environmental awareness, and rise in prices for anything marketed as sport performance has killed the market.

I also think the advancement in tech has killed the feel of a performance vehicle. I think most of us grew up falling in love with that mechanical feeling of a sports car, the excitement of feeling that power, but todays tech masks everything I grew up loving. Sure, the data shows that tech makes a car perform better, but the excitement is gone. Without excitement it just becomes another mode of transportation.

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by ///d

in my opinion I think performance enthusiasts are a dying breed. Sure, theres younger generations that are still into automobile performance, but from what I've seen it's become far and few between. The increase in fuel prices, increase in restrictions and laws, environmental awareness, and rise in prices for anything marketed as sport performance has killed the market.

I also think the advancement in tech has killed the feel of a performance vehicle. I think most of us grew up falling in love with that mechanical feeling of a sports car, the excitement of feeling that power, but todays tech masks everything I grew up loving. Sure, the data shows that tech makes a car perform better, but the excitement is gone. Without excitement it just becomes another mode of transportation.

I agree with this. Less people interested in sports cars especially with the push to EVs.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Either way the gist remains - they aren't the driver's cars they used to be. Not their bread & butter models anyhow.

This has been the case from as far back as I remember. All about specification.

Whether we talk about the E30 or say an E90, the base models have always been different to drive, than a well optioned model.

We had four E30 examples in my company at the same time. A 318i, two different spec' 320i's and a 323i. So different to drive, the 323i was the driver's car by a mile.

Through the years, I've known guys test drive a BMW and come away thinking "what's all the hype about?" Question them to what they tried and it is usually a case of not the best specification.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Discounting the EVs for a second which is indeed a true direction change for the industry as a whole... what vehicles does BMW make right now that are subpar to their older cars?

If you mean a little more insulated and heavy... well that's true across the board for all manufacturers.

If you mean lacking driving dynamics, that's not true for the 3, 4, 5, x3, x5, m3, m5... they are by far the most dynamic cars in their class... 7 series and up, that's an irrelevant point.

Are they as dynamic as their predicessors?

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Are they as dynamic as their predicessors?

Yes except for size and weight which we have no control over due to safety regulations and changing market demands... this is true for all manufacturers.

The only other place may be EPS but again thats a very split opinion... i thought the older hydraulic racks brought in a massive amount of feel to the steering wheel where your hands would feel rigid after driving too long... and eps systems just continue to get better... my m2c was perfect in that regard.

Manual trannys... everyone said goodbye to that... the market for it today is tiny at best... and comparing to a time when the DCT / ZF8s didn't exist is absurd.