M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (IMSA, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..)

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-10-2022, 03:09 PM   #67
MontyB1
Major
926
Rep
1,090
Posts

Drives: BMW X3
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaungo View Post
They're not hiding anything, there are certain things that are in the grey zone that the FIA considers part of the budget cap that Redbull says it shouldn't be included as they interpreted it a different way. Sick leave and catering for example, as it was COVID year, I can imagine the amount of paid sick leave used for their employees.
Sorry Iím not sure you understand. The accounts have not been filed in companies house in the UK by Redbull. It needed to be done by the end of September for last years accounts. They havenít done that are are late and will be fined not the FIA but they are currently breaching up accounting rules.

The other UK F1 teams have all filed on time from what I can see, that is clear cut Iím afraid, there is more than just the FIA to deal with and laws to comply with.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2022, 05:52 PM   #68
kring
Second Lieutenant
United_States
321
Rep
234
Posts

Drives: ‘19 M550i Dinan S1, 340i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Connecticut

iTrader: (0)

FIA said that RB failed to deliver required financial details and is in violation as what they have indicates over-spend. The verdict is in. RB has absolutly no defense to this other then they would rather look to fight this through speculation rather then disclose their required financials. It’s no longer speculation, it’s officially noted that RedBull is in breach/violation. I hope we get full disclosure as this comes to light over the coming days. RB is trying to minimize it, but it will come down to the actual amount/value and what practices RB did with the finances to hide or diminish. It’s possible RB is caught doing creative accounting as well. It’s going to come down to the flagrancy and total dollar value.

the rules state FIA possible punishment. Public reprimand, driver or constructors point deductions, suspension from future races, reduction in future R&D budgets.

Based on the flagrency, deception and total dollar… it’s going to range from nothing but a hand slap, which I think we’re well beyond that. If it turns out they spend a few million over cap then it should be a strong response and Max can loose his title with some point reductions. If it’s less than $1M then it can be reduction of future R&D or race suspension.

Either way, since the cost-cap is new, and is the future of F1 - IMO this needs to set a precedence setting punishment; they need to wallop RB for this if it turns out to be egregious as a few million over-spend is an absolute and significant advantage over a 22-24 race season.

I am assuming RB will give up their financials as required and agree to a full in-depth audit of their financial practices to determine exact over-spend. If RB drags this out refusing to provide access and details or respond to questions, then IMP they should disqualified from 2021 from all races, suspend for all of 2022, and banned for 2023 - there should be no room for RB to resist or fight this. Now RB would be crazy to let it go this far, but FIA/F1 needs to enforce this level of punishment for non-compliance.

I just saw they classified it as “minor breach” but that could still be millions which is substantial… I think <5% is the minor level which is $2.2M.

Last edited by kring; 10-10-2022 at 06:07 PM..
Appreciate 1
MontyB1926.00
      10-10-2022, 06:28 PM   #69
///M Power-Belgium
General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
53032
Rep
21,833
Posts

Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3798j View Post
Don't know about that, but I do know Max will someday have a WDC that will be indisputable.
Mate. I can feel your pain ...It really hurts !
__________________
"MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion

BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 1
M5Rick45422.00
      10-10-2022, 06:31 PM   #70
TheBingoBalls
Brigadier General
TheBingoBalls's Avatar
Canada
3536
Rep
4,569
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto, Ontario

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by kring View Post
I think <5% is the minor level which is $2.2M.
<5% would be an amount of up to $7.25 million. While I don't think Red Bull spent that much over the cap (that amount would be inexcusable), $1-2 million would still be significant even if classified as "minor" especially to a team like Red Bull who are already a top tier team.

And it's not just the 2021 season. We don't know if the spending was strictly for 2021 or if this was something that carried over into this years car. To simply dismiss this because it happened last year or because one deems the overspend insignificant would be wrong especially because this is Red Bull. I'm not pointing the finger directly at Red Bull but over spending by a team like Williams is not the same as over spending by Red Bull, Ferrari or Mercedes.

You can argue classification this and that but at the end of the day, every team didn't breach the cap except one. It's safe to assume that anything to do with last year's championship will be untouched so I'm looking for a significant fine and a decrease in wind tunnel testing. Sanctions have to be tough out the gate - the perception of the FIA will get a lot worse if Red Bull gets a slap on the wrist because it's the first year of the cap and those who breach rules in the future get the severe penalties.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2022, 06:32 PM   #71
///M Power-Belgium
General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
53032
Rep
21,833
Posts

Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
It's a ''long and complex process'' as they say. How they will calculate with electronic receipts? Not like the old days when everything was on paper in black and white.
This thread is actually a storm in a glass of water ...
__________________
"MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion

BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 2
M5Rick45422.00
      10-10-2022, 06:37 PM   #72
ToddBlack88
Private First Class
ToddBlack88's Avatar
588
Rep
143
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MC 2010 F650GS
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: North Vancouver

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kring View Post
FIA said that RB failed to deliver required financial details and is in violation as what they have indicates over-spend. The verdict is in. RB has absolutly no defense to this other then they would rather look to fight this through speculation rather then disclose their required financials. It’s no longer speculation, it’s officially noted that RedBull is in breach/violation. I hope we get full disclosure as this comes to light over the coming days. RB is trying to minimize it, but it will come down to the actual amount/value and what practices RB did with the finances to hide or diminish. It’s possible RB is caught doing creative accounting as well. It’s going to come down to the flagrancy and total dollar value.

the rules state FIA possible punishment. Public reprimand, driver or constructors point deductions, suspension from future races, reduction in future R&D budgets.

Based on the flagrency, deception and total dollar… it’s going to range from nothing but a hand slap, which I think we’re well beyond that. If it turns out they spend a few million over cap then it should be a strong response and Max can loose his title with some point reductions. If it’s less than $1M then it can be reduction of future R&D or race suspension.

Either way, since the cost-cap is new, and is the future of F1 - IMO this needs to set a precedence setting punishment; they need to wallop RB for this if it turns out to be egregious as a few million over-spend is an absolute and significant advantage over a 22-24 race season.

I am assuming RB will give up their financials as required and agree to a full in-depth audit of their financial practices to determine exact over-spend. If RB drags this out refusing to provide access and details or respond to questions, then IMP they should disqualified from 2021 from all races, suspend for all of 2022, and banned for 2023 - there should be no room for RB to resist or fight this. Now RB would be crazy to let it go this far, but FIA/F1 needs to enforce this level of punishment for non-compliance.

I just saw they classified it as “minor breach” but that could still be millions which is substantial… I think <5% is the minor level which is $2.2M.

I read <5% , so somewhere between $0 and 7 million and change or so. 145 million cost cap. That’s a substantial amount if it’s near %5, but I don’t believe it’s that much.
__________________
Current : 2007 Z4MC, 2010 F650gs, 2018 340i M Performance Edition, 2020 G310gs, 2009 128i
Past : 2001 325 cab, 2002 325xit, 1992 325 M tech ll appearance pack cab, 1990 325is, 1988 M3, 2012 328xit, 2009 M135i cab, 2016 M235i cab,
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2022, 06:46 PM   #73
TheBingoBalls
Brigadier General
TheBingoBalls's Avatar
Canada
3536
Rep
4,569
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto, Ontario

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
This thread is actually a storm in a glass of water ...
Just like every VER/HAM, Red Bull/Mercedes thread/topic.
Appreciate 1
      10-10-2022, 07:00 PM   #74
///M Power-Belgium
General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
53032
Rep
21,833
Posts

Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

You know what is unbelievable ?

That Wollf is tipped by a FIA staff member and got (fake-exaggerated) information .

Wolff and Mercedes is already been tipped "twice" by the same woman (ex Mercedes) !

Wolff is involved in corruption practices to get private protected FIA information .
__________________
"MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion

BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 3
M5Rick45422.00
GuidoK7500.50
      10-10-2022, 08:07 PM   #75
g21
Colonel
g21's Avatar
2099
Rep
2,669
Posts

Drives: M340i M550i LeafEV WRX Sienna
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Australasia

iTrader: (0)

sorry to disappoint you but the FIA are not going to do anything.

still I'd like more details

juicy details!
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2022, 08:25 PM   #76
kring
Second Lieutenant
United_States
321
Rep
234
Posts

Drives: ‘19 M550i Dinan S1, 340i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Connecticut

iTrader: (0)

Ferrari equated $5M over-spend in R&D to a 0.5 second improvement in lap times. That’s game changer, even if it’s $2M that could be 2 tenths or more…. I’m sure this is pumped up a bit, but given how limited F1 teams are to on-track testing, wind tunnel and R&D; it could very well be that substantial. And that could carry year-over-year to benefits. It’s also might not translate to speed, it could mean significantly more reliability.

I hope the details come out, not to go after RB, but at minimum understand what FIA/F1 position will be on breaches… no action will mean everyone just busts through the cap this year and next.
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2022, 03:20 AM   #77
MontyB1
Major
926
Rep
1,090
Posts

Drives: BMW X3
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Just to update Redbull Racing STILL haven't posted their accounts for last year. Now just for a comparison Red Bull last year had their accounts signed off in February and published them by the deadline. That is crazy fast this year, they haven't published them at all. Their auditions are EY where as the FIA are using Deloitte so both heavyweight auditors.

Red Bull Racing Companies house

Red Bull Advanced Technologies

Its interesting to look over them, there are very few directors across both companies and the vast majority of employees actually sit I the Red Bull Advanced Tech company, I haven't added the Powertrains business or the other 4 entities they are using to trying and potentially hide any overspend in. Christian looks to be getting paid about £5m but that could be more getting multiple payments as directors of more complains. Their CFO seems to be on £300k.

Still can't compare the numbers to any other team yet as they STILL haven't published the accounts yet and its still showing as late. Am sure they aren't hiding anything, oh no.
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2022, 04:39 AM   #78
M5Rick
Lieutenant General
M5Rick's Avatar
45422
Rep
15,206
Posts

Drives: M5 F10 DCT Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
You know what is unbelievable ?

That Wollf is tipped by a FIA staff member and got (fake-exaggerated) information .

Wolff and Mercedes is already been tipped "twice" by the same woman (ex Mercedes) !

Wolff is involved in corruption practices to get private protected FIA information .
That on it's own is a red warning for 'conflicts of interests' that has not been addressed and it's known he has friends in hi gh places, another reason he should leave F1 for the sake of the other teams.
Appreciate 1
      10-11-2022, 05:05 AM   #79
///M Power-Belgium
General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
53032
Rep
21,833
Posts

Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
That on it's own is a red warning for 'conflicts of interests' that has not been addressed and it's known he has friends in hi gh places, another reason he should leave F1 for the sake of the other teams.
The Mercedes #BlitzKrieg !
__________________
"MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion

BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 2
M5Rick45422.00
DrFerry5493.50
      10-11-2022, 05:24 AM   #80
M5Rick
Lieutenant General
M5Rick's Avatar
45422
Rep
15,206
Posts

Drives: M5 F10 DCT Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
The Mercedes #BlitzKrieg !
The secret squadron of 'stuka' dive bombers will be brought out if things get too hot for him 1
Appreciate 1
      10-11-2022, 09:14 AM   #81
3798j
Lieutenant Colonel
3798j's Avatar
8498
Rep
1,526
Posts

Drives: E86 3.0si
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Susquehanna Valley

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
'08 Z4 3.0SI  [9.00]
'66 Triumph TR4A  [0.00]
'85 Corvette  [0.00]
'64 Corvette  [0.00]
'68 Triumph GT6  [0.00]
'55 Ford F100  [0.00]
'19 VW Golf "R ...  [0.00]
If RedBull is smart they'll take an ABA (Accepted Breach Agreement).

"The advantage of an ABA would mean that no points could be deducted by the FIA, nor can the team's budget for the future be reduced as a penalty.
The team could still be banned from one or more sessions, including a testing or qualifying session, allocated less aerodynamic time in their wind tunnel, or receive a public reprimand."
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2022, 10:27 AM   #82
MontyB1
Major
926
Rep
1,090
Posts

Drives: BMW X3
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Red Bull accepting an ABA would be easy for them to do and the damage would be limited but they seem to want to defend it, we shall see.

One thing that appears to be a potential bone of contention is Adrian Newey which would be rather ironic. Apparently he gets paid as a consultant to the company probably to his own limit company. Expect if that is the case he reduces his own tax burden but what the issue then is he isn't an employee and can't be called as one of the top 3 highest paid within the cost cap rules. If this is the case it would be funny and from an accounting prospective he is most certainly a supplier and NOT an employee and the auditors will have the same view and like FIA and their auditors.

Looking at the accounts Hemet, Christian, DM and a few others are directors but interestingly not Adrian which would back things up as you would expect him to be a director considering his role but no.
Appreciate 1
3798j8498.00
      10-11-2022, 10:55 AM   #83
3798j
Lieutenant Colonel
3798j's Avatar
8498
Rep
1,526
Posts

Drives: E86 3.0si
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Susquehanna Valley

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
'08 Z4 3.0SI  [9.00]
'66 Triumph TR4A  [0.00]
'85 Corvette  [0.00]
'64 Corvette  [0.00]
'68 Triumph GT6  [0.00]
'55 Ford F100  [0.00]
'19 VW Golf "R ...  [0.00]
The desire to "backroom" it with an ABA should be tempting...minmize embarrassment, penalty avoidance and probably a few more reasons.

"If the team chooses to take the matter on and go in front of judges so it can plead its case, then equally the final judgement will be made public."
Article 7.27 of the rules states: "The Cost Cap Adjudication Panel will publish the decision of the judging panel and the grounds upon which they are based, save for any Confidential Information."
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2022, 10:58 AM   #84
lens
Colonel
lens's Avatar
1767
Rep
2,492
Posts

Drives: 2018 340i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Halifax NS, Canada

iTrader: (5)

Redbull will 100% appeal and bring it to court if they need to, they audited themselves by top auditors and they were under, and FIA says they're over by a tiny bit when they did theirs.

People are just overexaggerating, they'll be fine.

It does seem like we have alot of haters though, apparently 8 years of mercedes dominance didn't raise any questions, but two years of WDC for Redbull and everyone is trying absolutely everything to DSQ them.
Appreciate 2
      10-11-2022, 11:55 AM   #85
Killed by Death
Colonel
Killed by Death's Avatar
9686
Rep
2,861
Posts

Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Appreciate 3
      10-11-2022, 12:04 PM   #86
MontyB1
Major
926
Rep
1,090
Posts

Drives: BMW X3
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaungo View Post
Redbull will 100% appeal and bring it to court if they need to, they audited themselves by top auditors and they were under, and FIA says they're over by a tiny bit when they did theirs.

People are just overexaggerating, they'll be fine.

It does seem like we have alot of haters though, apparently 8 years of mercedes dominance didn't raise any questions, but two years of WDC for Redbull and everyone is trying absolutely everything to DSQ them.
Sorry but that is just complete conjecture. If they have completed their audit and the accounts have been signed off across the group then why not post the accounts. They are in breach of UK accounting rules as it stands. There could be a good reason but last year the audit of RBR was done in Feb and posted in time no issues. We are 2x weeks past the deadline and nothing.

So when you say 'absolutely X Y Z' lets be absolutely clear if they have nothing to hide then they should post their accounts in the regulated way and we can all take a look and help them clear their name.. sound reasonable?
Appreciate 1
minn1913265.00
      10-11-2022, 04:15 PM   #87
Killed by Death
Colonel
Killed by Death's Avatar
9686
Rep
2,861
Posts

Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Attached Images
 
Appreciate 4
minn1913265.00
Steeler2353.50
irunalot1508.50
      10-11-2022, 07:24 PM   #88
///M Power-Belgium
General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
53032
Rep
21,833
Posts

Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killed by Death View Post
Red Bull gives you wings my friend !
__________________
"MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion

BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 2
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21 PM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST