F1 2022: Brazilian GP - São Paulo (Nov 13)

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Top speed

https://youtube.com/shorts/E-0szkeL4TM?feature=share
Very similar incident with Max and ocon.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think here Max was a lap ahead?
There are very specific rules concerning unlapping oneself that don't apply when fighting for a position.
So not at all similar.
Unlapping is only allowed when it's non intrusive. So you're not allowed to force the car you're trying to unlap of the racing line, something Ocon obviously did.

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Almost identical, you won't get the Max fanatics to agree he did anything wrong though, the rose tinted specs are very strong, very - very strong.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Those rose tinted specs dont prevent us to see that there was a lap difference, something you dont seem to realise.
Maybe do some research to refresh your memory and read what the late Charlie Whiting said about that:
"Wholly unacceptable"
And that reads the same with and without those specs

Originally Posted by minn19

Ocon was wrong but Max had much more to lose in that spot than Ocon so Max made a bad decision tangling with him instead of letting him go.

Images and Race Stewards decision about the lap 44/71 incident during the 2018 Brazil race (race leader Verstappen was fighting for the race win, trailed by Hamilton - Ocon had been lapped):

[g21]

Originally Posted by Artemis

2002 Austria: I kept going right to the end, saying I would not let him [Schumacher] pass. That’s when they [Ferrari] said something about something much broader. It was not about the contract. I cannot tell you what they said, but it was a form of threat that made me think about re-thinking my life, because the great joy for me was driving."[/I]):

"we will make your girlfriend drive you around in a Mercedes" ?

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by minn19

I guess Lewis should’ve attacked Max after the race?

If Max would have been 1 lap behind, then maybe....yes.
Obviously Max actions after the race were wrong, but understandable. (and he got a penalty for it).
But Ocon's move was stupid and freakish. I mean, how many crashes in corners do you know between race leaders and backmarkers where the backmarker is trying to unlap himself?
And now compare that with the amount of crashes in corners between drivers that are fighting over an actual spot in the results.

That first one maybe happens once every 20 years? The 2nd example happens all the time, multiple times per race usually.

Yes, Ocon may unlap himself, but he may only do that unintrusively. Therefore as race leader you may expect the backmarker to abort his action.

I really don't understand why certain fans from a certain camp don't see the difference in situations between the 2018 VER-OCO crash and the 2022 VER-HAM crash.
These are factual differences in situations on which the rules are very clear..
Why is there a flag to alert a backmarkers that a race leader is about to overtake them, and there isn't a flag to alert a race leader that a backmarker is trying to overtake him. For some members here this is apparently food for thought.

Obviously Ocon knows all this so one even might question whether or not this was a willing move. Maybe setteling an old score or something (they have raced eachother for years since childhood).
Speculative, but who knows. They've never been friends.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by minn19

^This, especially the last paragraph. Ocon was wrong but Max had much more to lose in that spot than Ocon so Max made a bad decision tangling with him instead of letting him go. I have the same opinion here with LH’s decision despite how things turned out. Both were actually very lucky they didn’t DNF.

The thing with the hardcore Max fans here is they still excoriate Ocon because of that incident and calling him names etc. Plus, IIRC , some of the really hardcore ones said he should’ve went further in his after race fight with Ocon. I guess Lewis should’ve attacked Max after the race? This is where a lot of us don’t like Max’s personality or his fans behavior. Max did the exact same thing Ocon did to him and obviously two very different reactions. One he physically attacked another driver and then in this incident he blames Lewis for not leaving him room/saying Lewis ruined his chance at a win. Max and his fans always want it both ways and it is indefensible.

Ocon's season with Alonso should reinforce that no?

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Again, I think it was a racing incident like many others but everyone seems to look for blame because it affects their favourite driver/team. HAM did nothing wrong and I thought the same for VER…until he came out and said what he said.

I agree racing incident. Race control needs to let the two divas race. Max had to pit for new nose and Lewis went on to race, it sorted itself out.

[NYG]

It was 100% a racing incident. Arguing that Max deserved a time penalty is silly but arguing that Max deserved penalty points is just bias to the extreme.

[M5Rick]

So we're all in agreement a racing incident, so WTF made the panel decide on a 5 second penalty to Max.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

So we're all in agreement a racing incident, so WTF made the panel decide on a 5 second penalty to Max.

They gave their reasons and it's straightforward and I'm ok with the decision. It's not like the stewards pulled the explanation out of their ass - it was a rational decision. Whether or not everyone else does is an entirely different discussion.

I thought Lando deserved a penalty for driving into LEC, but it was deemed a racing incident. That wasn't even close - LEC was way out on the left of the track and Lando drove into him. 🤷🏻*♂️

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This is Van Haren's story (dutch, but with automatic subs translatable to english.... or should I say dunglish...):

Verstappen in his own words - post-race interview with Sky:

The allegation in the tweet posted by Dutch F1 reporter Erik van Haren was already bold (see here).

But his Telesport TV interview is a bomb shell: he unreservedly claims that Perez deliberately crashed in Q3 of the Monaco qualies of May 28, 2022. No cautious "maybe", "probably" or "possibly", but "100%", "fact" and "pure intent" (also explicitly denying that his claim is "suggestive").

Quick translation of a couple of things the Dutch F1 reporter said/claimed:

• when Verstappen was radioed to let Perez pass during the final lap of the 2022 Brazil race, the reporter "already knew for sure at that moment" that Verstappen would refuse "and that has everything to do with Monaco earlier this year";
• he claims that a couple of weeks ago, "I believe in Mexico" (the Mexico race weekend of Oct 28-30, 2022), Verstappen was internally asked whether under such (hypothetical) scenario he would let Perez pass, but Verstappen "re-iterated" that he would refuse to do so "because you know why"; Red Bull internally "knew" that Verstappen would definitely not change his mind on this subject and that "what happened in Monaco is not forgotten";
• he said that, after Max Verstappen secured the 2022 WDC title in Japan (Oct 9, 2022), Jos Verstappen told his newspaper that "also for him, Monaco was the turning point";
• he added that during the Azerbaijan race weekend (June 10-12, 2022; the next race after the Monaco race weekend of May 27-29, 2022) he was "by chance standing next to Red Bull" and he heard Helmut Marko ask where Perez was; after returning from the press conference, Perez was escorted upstairs where he was "summoned to explain" ("op het matje geroepen" is a Dutch expression for being ordered to explain alleged inappropriate behavior); the reporter added: "And apparently, there, Perez has internally admitted that he had deliberately spun during the final run of the qualifications. He had P3, so it was not about pole position. He saw on his steering wheel via the delta time that he was not faster underway. He thought « I park over there » and so Verstappen - who was faster underway - can no longer pass.";
• Perez went on to win the Monaco race and the reporter claims that "Verstappen has always remembered this";
• he added: "People can say: « Suggestive ». However, we know this already since months. It's internally already known." and "The onboard images of Perez, the data, and you clearly see that only in that moment he immediately floors the gas pedal in the middle of the turn ahead of the tunnel. Yeah, that was pure intent. And this has nothing to do with speculation, again, this is just a fact and he has also internally admitted this.";
• he also said: "Inside Verstappen's mind there is a difference between helping someone and truly deliberately screwing someone. And in his view that has happened in Monaco. And you can factually construe this. And he does not forget this.";
• futhermore: "Max Verstappen is not in F1 to make friends. He's a man of principles, a pure winner. And notwithstanding that it's only about P6, he has already internally told this, and he's not gonna change his mind in the final lap at Interlagos.";
• he concluded that "regardless of everything you may think about it, I do not understand why, given that he had internally already pointed this out a couple of times, to still think that via the onboard radio he would then [you could make him] agree.";
• and finally about his claim that the incident is related to Monaco, he concluded: "Was it Monaco? He [Verstappen] replied something along the lines « You can decide that. I'm not gonna say it ». Well, I just know for 100% that that's case. He's not saying it, but we are there to disclose it to the world.".

Critical moment:


Innuendo, conjecture or truth ? None of us over here has info to make sound statements about this matter. But if an FIA investigation would conclude the reporter's bold claim of alleged foul play by Perez during Q3 at 2022 Monaco race weekend to be established, Perez and Red Bull risk to be in hot water. Also, if the claim is false, Perez and Red Bull could take action because of slander and reputational damage. IMHO the FIA should look into this - it's about basic principles of fair play and sportsmanship.

2006 Monaco race weekend: Schumacher DSQ'd by Race Stewards regarding the controversial qualification incident at the Rascasse corner:

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

They gave their reasons and it's straightforward and I'm ok with the decision. It's not like the stewards pulled the explanation out of their ass - it was a rational decision. Whether or not everyone else does is an entirely different discussion.

I thought Lando deserved a penalty for driving into LEC, but it was deemed a racing incident. That wasn't even close - LEC was way out on the left of the track and Lando drove into him. 🤷🏻*♂️

I disagree, it was an anti Max decision purely because he's the only one who tried to take on HAM.

[MontyB1]

It’s funny the media are all over Perez and Monaco and linked it after the race but nothing at the time. I didn’t see it as a I was away for Monaco so was blissfully unaware, plus it’s a dreadful race to watch live.

But Perez does have questions to answer as do Red Bull, Max is still petulant but it’s obviously something that he has been stewing over for a while.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

They gave their reasons and it's straightforward and I'm ok with the decision. It's not like the stewards pulled the explanation out of their ass - it was a rational decision. Whether or not everyone else does is an entirely different discussion.

I thought Lando deserved a penalty for driving into LEC, but it was deemed a racing incident. That wasn't even close - LEC was way out on the left of the track and Lando drove into him. 🤷🏻*♂️

Are you ok with the 2 penalty points on license?

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by NYG

Are you ok with the 2 penalty points on license?

If that's what they determined to be a proper penalty, it is what it is. Doesn't matter who the driver is. For me, if the decision isn't egregious, I'm fine with it. It was a proper decision and it is what it is.

You're not going to please everyone so there really isn't any point in discussing in detail what a penalty should or shouldn't be especially with the fanbase on this forum.

Also, points like this to drivers like HAM and VER really don't mean anything, they will ever truly be at risk in being suspended for points on their license.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

It’s funny the media are all over Perez and Monaco and linked it after the race but nothing at the time. I didn’t see it as a I was away for Monaco so was blissfully unaware, plus it’s a dreadful race to watch live.

But Perez does have questions to answer as do Red Bull, Max is still petulant but it’s obviously something that he has been stewing over for a while.

No apologies: something bugs Verstappen about Perez, like a splinter in his mind. Verstappen made clear via onboard radio and in post-race interviews to firmly stand by his decision to refuse Perez a pass worth 2 WDC points (which would have secured P2 in the WDC after the Interlagos race), even to the extent of overruling a clear team order. Perez is now trailing Leclerc in the WDC (both 290 points, but Leclerc has more race wins).

Apologies: Perez to his wife via Instagram after partying hard to celebrate his first Monaco race win: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sp...ing-women.html ("Mexican F1 star Sergio Perez issues a grovelling public apology to his wife after being caught on camera dancing cheek-to-cheek with mystery women at a 'very bad party that I didn't know how to control' following victory at the Monaco Grand Prix").

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by Artemis

No apologies: something bugs Verstappen about Perez, like a splinter in his mind. Verstappen made clear via onboard radio and in post-race interviews to firmly stand by his decision to refuse Perez a pass worth 2 WDC points (which would have secured P2 in the WDC after the Interlagos race), even to the extent of overruling a clear team order. Perez is now trailing Leclerc in the WDC (both 290 points, but Leclerc has more race wins).

Apologies: Perez to his wife via Instagram after partying hard to celebrate his first Monaco race win: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sp...ing-women.html ("Mexican F1 star Sergio Perez issues a grovelling public apology to his wife after being caught on camera dancing cheek-to-cheek with mystery women at a 'very bad party that I didn't know how to control' following victory at the Monaco Grand Prix").

Seems there will be more questions about the incident. The analysis of the Monaco incident looks pretty clear that it was forced or at least very very different to the way he drove that corner every other time.

MMmmm let see what they all have to say this coming weekend. The team will want to put it behind them, I suspect some of the journalists and maybe teams, possibly not.

[M5Rick]

^ A storm in a tea cup nothing more, accidents happen in the blink of an eye in F1.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Seems there will be more questions about the incident. The analysis of the Monaco incident looks pretty clear that it was forced or at least very very different to the way he drove that corner every other time.

MMmmm let see what they all have to say this coming weekend. The team will want to put it behind them, I suspect some of the journalists and maybe teams, possibly not.

Uh-oh, what happened in Monaco, didn't stay in Monaco. Gloves are off now down at camp Verstappen.

Out of the blue, responding to an Instagram post lambasting her son about the Brazil race, Verstappen's mother interfered in the discussion with a - subsequently deleted - reply calling out Perez for cheating on his wife in Monaco: "and then in the evening cheating on his wife". If that post is legit, then it seems that the divide is running deeper than perceived so far.

Is Verstappen's wrath caused either by Perez compromising his Monaco Q3 purple sectors lap as a result of a controversial spin OR Perez winning the Monaco race the next day OR Perez allegedly cheating on his wife after the Monaco race OR all of that OR none of that ?

For sure Marko, Horner and media trainers will have some extra home work this week.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Uh-oh, what happened in Monaco, didn't stay in Monaco. Gloves are off now down at camp Verstappen.

Out of the blue, responding to an Instagram post lambasting her son about the Brazil race, Verstappen's mother interfered in the discussion with a - subsequently deleted - reply calling out Perez for cheating on his wife in Monaco: "and then in the evening cheating on his wife". If that post is legit, then it seems that the divide is running deeper than perceived so far.

Is Verstappen's wrath caused either by Perez compromising his Monaco Q3 purple sectors lap as a result of a controversial spin OR Perez winning the Monaco race the next day OR Perez allegedly cheating on his wife after the Monaco race OR all of that OR none of that ?

For sure Marko, Horner and media trainers will have some extra home work this week.

Attachment 3033921

Attachment 3033922

Wow, they went with the nuclear option pretty quickly. This’ll help things.

All over really nothing but ego, wow. Lesson for future Max teammates, toe the line even if you don’t know where the line is. Or else the entire Verstappen clan is coming after you and it’ll get very public/personal pretty quickly.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by minn19

Wow, they went with the nuclear option pretty quickly. This’ll help things.

Sophie Kumpen is generally known to be a genuinely kind person. Really. Suddenly posting an Instagram comment like that - although only briefly online - suggests IMHO that, on a personal level, the relationship between the Verstappens and Perez is broken beyond repair. But the show must go on.

The press has picked up the story: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ting-wife.html ("F1 world champion Max Verstappen's mum accuses his Red Bull teammate Sergio Perez of cheating on his WIFE before deleting post - as fight over controversial Brazil GP finish explodes").

If sponsors would start to strongly question Red Bull Racing about the turn of events, the fate of Perez may get sealed. For now: just wave and smile. Dutch expression: "Wie geschoren wordt, moet stilzitten" = when you're being shaved, you got to sit still (meaning: hunker down until the storm has settled).

[br438]

Originally Posted by NYG

It was 100% a racing incident. Arguing that Max deserved a time penalty is silly but arguing that Max deserved penalty points is just bias to the extreme.

The regs say "significantly alongside"... and Max was absolutely significantly alongside - so should have been entitled to space.

My issue is not with what is or isn't allowed - just that the FIA has made zero progress in being consistent about any of it. It doesn't seem that hard to me, but... I am speaking from the cheapest of seats. hahahahahaaa.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by br438

The regs say "significantly alongside"... and Max was absolutely significantly alongside - so should have been entitled to space.

My issue is not with what is or isn't allowed - just that the FIA has made zero progress in being consistent about any of it. It doesn't seem that hard to me, but... I am speaking from the cheapest of seats. hahahahahaaa.

To be fair, they have been consistent. They have been penalizing most things. Racing incident/clean racing is pretty much dead in this era.

Moving forward, everyone should expect a penalty if any driver tags another driver.

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Sophie Kumpen is generally known to be a genuinely kind person. Really. Suddenly posting an Instagram comment like that - although only briefly online - suggests IMHO that, on a personal level, the relationship between the Verstappens and Perez is broken beyond repair. But the show must go on.

The press has picked up the story: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ting-wife.html ("F1 world champion Max Verstappen's mum accuses his Red Bull teammate Sergio Perez of cheating on his WIFE before deleting post - as fight over controversial Brazil GP finish explodes").

If sponsors would start to strongly question Red Bull Racing about the turn of events, the fate of Perez may get sealed. For now: just wave and smile. Dutch expression: "Wie geschoren wordt, moet stilzitten" = when you're being shaved, you got to sit still (meaning: hunker down until the storm has settled).

Hmm. What was ALO chatting like old Buddies with Marko and Horner in Brazil when I remember them tangling in public years ago about what RB offered and did not offer ALO