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02-23-2017, 06:50 AM | #45 |
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The Lexus doesn't really match up to the M5. However, it is true that the M5 is traction limited even under non-snowy conditions. My experience was that I had to always be gentle with the throttle or I would trigger the traction control.
Ultimately living at the top of a hill in New England made having the M5 impossible even with dedicated snow tires. Studded tires might have worked. Having now experienced a X5M, i think a AWD M5 would be awesome. |
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02-23-2017, 09:11 AM | #46 | ||
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By the way I don't care about reviews - they also picked a Camaro over the M but the styling and quality is a non-starter for me any many others, so take reviews with a grain of salt. Even so there's someone tracking M reviews on these forums and they still have won more than they lost. |
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02-23-2017, 09:49 PM | #47 | |
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Your point on turbocharging is highly arguable. It's quite ironic that someone arguing about the demise of the "Ultimate Driving Machine" makes a point in favor of turbocharging while for many BMW fans, the phasing out of normally aspirated engines across BMW's lineup can be seen as contributing to that very "demise". The fact that neither BMW nor BMW M offer even one naturally aspirated motor in the ever expanding lineup of cars is really nothing to celebrate about. Especially considering BMW made a name for itself with its linear, smooth, and free-revving engines. Torque be damned, I'd take an S54 or S65 all day over an N54/N55 or S55. Hell, I find the M54 and N52 engines to be way more enjoyable and more quintessentially BMW than the N20/N26 that came after.
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02-23-2017, 10:02 PM | #48 | |
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There aren't too many people who "hate" their 1M/M2/F30 M3 and miss their E90 M3 because, "dammit, the car just moves off the line". Heck, I went from a E60 550 to a E60 M5 and missed the torque every day! So, if anything these new turbocharged engines HELP BMW in terms of the being more enjoyable for 99% of the people. I also have yet to see any new 911 owner really complain about their newfound torque at low speeds. Now, steering feel, chassis dynamics, road manners - those things make up a "Ultimate Driving Machine". When you get in a F30 3-335/340 after driving a E90 335, wow, what a difference. Electric Steering? Better in terms of fuel economy, worse in terms of feel. I get that - nobody really wants it. But turbocharging? It rocks.
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02-23-2017, 10:18 PM | #49 | |
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Turbo charged engines has come a long way. S63Tu is linear, smooth, and pretty free revving. Maybe still not quite as responsive as naturally aspirated engine at low rpm, but I think it's something BMW will continue to improve upon. It's not inconceivable that turbo charged engines will eventually behave like a naturally aspirated engine in every way plus with more power and torque. Whatever the case, ultimate driving machine will in the end, be exactly what it means, ultimate driving machine. It will drive itself. In 10 or 20 years, the next battle ground for car companies will be the interior. As driving the car burden lessens, what will you be doing inside the car? What can car companies offer you that will persuade you to buy one over the other? |
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02-23-2017, 10:32 PM | #50 | ||
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Hell, if what you describe is the definition of fun-to-drive, we should all be driving diesels. For BMW & M cars in particular, instantaneous throttle response, the theatrical noise and feel of revving out an engine, contributes to a more emotional and overall connection with the driving experience. NA vs. turbocharging, in BMW's case, is analogous to hydraulic steering vs. electric steering. The latter in both cases, implemented because of ever-increasing environmental constraints. There's been plenty of discussion on the E9X M3 and F8X boards (and other BMW forums not on this site) discussing this topic so [I] understand it's a dead horse by now. But to say it's not a topic that is debatable and that everyone unanimously loves turbos would be a huge fallacy. Quote:
To others it's about feel. Sometimes, choosing which car is the most fun is not a logical, but an emotional choice.
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02-23-2017, 10:38 PM | #51 | |
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02-23-2017, 10:53 PM | #52 | |
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While they [N54/N55/B58] are impressive engines for what they are, I'd take an NA counterpart any day of the week. More responsive than an NA unit? Don't make me laugh Turbo-lag, no matter how minuscule, is turbo-lag. A turbocharged engine will never match the response of an NA engine. You can't change the laws of physics. You don't have to agree with me. I'm simply sharing the other point of view (i.e., arguable) on BMW's implementation of turbocharging since you thought its implementation is unanimously loved.
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02-24-2017, 01:15 PM | #53 | |
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And ok, unanimously except for one
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02-24-2017, 01:23 PM | #54 |
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This review boils down to time and place. I would probably also prefer the Lexus on that road. It is narrower, it is lighter, it handles the broken road surface better, and the power disadvantage is moot given the cold wet conditions.
Drive on German or Italian roads in the summer and it will be a totally different story. That said the F10 M5 was not a great car because it wasn't effective at putting down power. It's 0-60 time was slower than even the cheaper Audi S6. BMWs e-diff was poorly designed and allowed too much slip. They designed the car for drifting, not for speed. G series M5 will hopefully be a different story.
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02-24-2017, 02:47 PM | #55 | |
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F10 M5 is not designed for drift only and e-diff (Active M Differential ) is one of the best LSD out there but you can not repeal the laws of physic. With that said you can turn off the DSC and go for a complete scary drift if you are skilled enough person and still drive the car as a monster highway cruiser to beat almost every single car including exotic cars at rolling over 100 km/h or 60 mph. In case of 0-60 this is obvious AWD car has much better performance than a powerful RWD with frontward weight distribution. I admit M5/M6 have difficulty putting the power down but again this is the law of physic. I have the same issue putting the power down with my current M4 CP if I want to turn the DSC OFF. Almost the same issue I had with my M6 you are referring too... There are some high light with M5 that we have to admit. DCT, Differential, Engine beside the suspension and comfortale seats are the main ones...
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02-24-2017, 09:56 PM | #56 | |
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You're talking about a powerband focused on low-end torque, which is not the same as throttle response. Low-end torque or not, the time it takes from the opening of the throttle, to actual execution is not as fast as a naturally aspirated engine, which is near instantaneous. High-rpms is just a bonus Try again. It's a topic beaten to death. There are many threads with more "dissenting" opinions like mine.
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02-24-2017, 10:39 PM | #57 | |
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http://www.motortrend.com/cars/fiat/...r-s-toyota-86/ "Associate editor Scott Evans said the engine was smooth and extremely responsive, and the steering was precise." PS - and yes, this is a dig... I lusted for a E90 M3... and when the dealer finally sold their blue M3, I picked up the 1M. I assure you, the 1M puts a smile on my face 7/8ths of the time driving it - vs. what I expect the E90 M3 would have done (1/8th). That engine is like my old E60 M5 - torqueless (worse actually) and no fun whatsoever until the RPMs are way up there. That doesn't work for me. Sure, on the track it is probably very nice - but I just don't drive on that daily, weekly... crap, even monthly...
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02-25-2017, 12:02 AM | #58 | |
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SA said that the chassis has not kept up with the power development. But it's a 2012 car, I'm sure BMW has learned a lot since then and will improve upon the weakness of the F10 M5. Last edited by Phatcat; 02-25-2017 at 02:14 AM.. |
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02-25-2017, 01:57 AM | #59 | |
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I've gone back and fourth between Turbo and non-turbo engines and end up lusting after the one I don't have. Best case scenario is to buy both types. Problem solved. I am thinking Huracan performante and an M3. Perfect combo.
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02-25-2017, 03:05 AM | #60 | |
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Most of NA engines has low torque at low rpm, so unless you are always at high rpm, NA engines can feel sluggish to a typical driver. Meanwhile, modern turbo engine provides gobs of torque at low rpm, can get the car moving much more quickly than a NA engine. So on the street, where keeping the car at high rpm is nearly impossible, a well designed turbo car can feel more responsive to throttle input. Turbo engines has gotten a lot better and will only get better since it is now at the center of engine development due to tougher emission laws for most of the car manufacturers. And also, we drive the car, not just the engine. Clever engineers will (and have) design other supplementary technology such as electric motor to help combat turbo lag and improve throttle responsiveness. That's why I said earlier that it is not inconceivable that a turbo engine or car will eventually have the good characteristics of a NA engine in every way and you won't be able to tell the difference. |
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02-25-2017, 09:05 AM | #61 | |
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02-25-2017, 12:07 PM | #62 | |||
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In an NA engine, the throttle response is the same at any RPM, because when the throttle opens, the air is combusted instantaneously. The driver gets 100% of the power and torque at a given RPM @ WOT as soon as the throttle is activated. In a turbo engine, there is a lag in the delivery of power & torque at a given RPM @ WOT. The air is combusted sans boost and the turbine is not spinning until there is enough exhaust gases to bring the turbine up to full speed to deliver 100% of the power/torque @ a given RPM. It doesn't matter how minuscule the lag is, it is always there. Quote:
Yes, in daily driving, it may be a moot point, as many may prefer a powerband that maximizes torque at low RPM, but for a nice weekend drive or track driving, there is little that can replace the feeling of instantaneous response of the throttle. Quote:
Think of it this way. The throttle of an NA engine is like an LED lightbulb. The light is activated instantly. It may be just a small LED, but it reaches full illumination right away and without delay. One is in full control of how and when the light is activated and the lighting element is focused and sharp. The throttle of a turbo engine is like a large incandescent lightbulb. While this large incandescent lightbulb may have a larger ray of light at full brightness than a single LED bulb, there is a noticeable delay between the time it takes from "off" to full illumination and the light is not as focused or sharp. That's the difference.
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02-25-2017, 12:37 PM | #63 | |
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LED lights are often known for their delay in turning on and I still disagree, because with your analogy, there of course is some delay for the turbo to spool up - but the same can be said with waiting until the RPMs are high enough to generate significant power on a NA engine - its the same thing. Anyway... think we have beat this dead horse up bad. The fact is, turbos are here to stay, just like electric steering. So we either get used to them (still not there yet with my M2) or we keep holding on to our cars as long as possible.
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02-25-2017, 12:41 PM | #64 |
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M5 vs a Toyota? hahahahaha!
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02-25-2017, 12:48 PM | #65 | |||
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The thing on the right...that's turbo lag Quote:
Having predictability & full control of the throttle is important in enthusiastic driving. Quote:
But 'twas a good discussion, even if you still have a few things misunderstood
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