Chris Harris drives the new E63S- Video inside

[gmfive]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Agree with your assessment, I just don't want to buy the same car twice

With what they seem to be busy doing to the F90, I doubt it will feel very similar to the F10 in driving.

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by gmfive

With what they seem to be busy doing to the F90, I doubt it will feel very similar to the F10 in driving.

Looks the same. See the below link, and clearly you will see why BMW was cheap/not being creative. Remember the M5 is off the same base model, and much you can do to sexy it up! I've been waiting for the new M5, and guess I'm just disappointment they didn't step up. Also the NAV screen not being integrated just looks dumb like it does in my M4 like a add one after thought. I will drive my Pcars and SUV until someone kills it in the 4 door performance car. The Panamera wins the turbo, but I can't find myself dropped 190k on a 4 door.

[gmfive]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Looks the same. See the below link, and clearly you will see why BMW was cheap/not being creative. Remember the M5 is off the same base model, and much you can do to sexy it up! I've been waiting for the new M5, and guess I'm just disappointment they didn't step up. Also the NAV screen not being integrated just looks dumb like it does in my M4 like a add one after thought. I will drive my Pcars and SUV until someone kills it in the 4 door performance car. The Panamera wins the turbo, but I can't find myself dropped 190k on a 4 door.

Yeah, the new panamera is impressive. You are right about the lazy "evolutionary" improvements. Corporate speak for "we have a working formula that sells cars, we will not disturb it". Come to think of it, it is not at all analogous to what porsche do with their 911 line.

In terms of a real step forward, the new A8 seems like one. Just watched this video:

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by gmfive

Yeah, the new panamera is impressive. You are right about the lazy "evolutionary" improvements. Corporate speak for "we have a working formula that sells cars, we will not disturb it". Come to think of it, it is not at all analogous to what porsche do with their 911 line.

In terms of a real step forward, the new A8 seems like one. Just watched this video:

That thing is a boat, and the only Audi I would consider is RS7. 911 model is interesting, but they produce the cars the owners want and historically they've looked the same for over 50 year which works for their brand. To that point that's why I stay with the GT line up. One of few cars you can buy and drive for two years and sell it for what you paid over more if you can get one. BMW mission is to sell a lot of cars and work on volume vs. Porsche model is margin low volume. I'm a BMW homer, but I will be critical when they F up. New model they just need to step up.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

That thing is a boat, and the only Audi I would consider is RS7. 911 model is interesting, but they produce the cars the owners want and historically they've looked the same for over 50 year which works for their brand. To that point that's why I stay with the GT line up. One of few cars you can buy and drive for two years and sell it for what you paid over more if you can get one. BMW mission is to sell a lot of cars and work on volume vs. Porsche model is margin low volume. I'm a BMW homer, but I will be critical when they F up. New model they just need to step up.

Although it's a boat, I'm really impressed with the new A8. I'm sure the next generation A6 will be good as well. As matter of fact, I deeply feel the G11 7-Series is one of BMW's best products right now and doesn't get the attention it deserves. I'm a disappointed with the G30 5-Series in general however. I love the G11 though, and I'd rather buy an M760i over an F90 M5 at the moment. I deeply appreciate the fact that BMW is still making a Twin Turbo V12 and stuffing it in a 7-Series. While I deeply hate the fact that M is recycling the same TTV8 again from the last generation M5. Did I use the word deeply too much?

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Although it's a boat, I'm really impressed with the new A8. I'm sure the next generation A6 will be good as well. As matter of fact, I deeply feel the G11 7-Series is one of BMW's best products right now and doesn't get the attention it deserves. I'm a disappointed with the G30 5-Series in general however. I love the G11 though, and I'd rather buy an M760i over an F90 M5 at the moment. I deeply appreciate the fact that BMW is still making a Twin Turbo V12 and stuffing it in a 7-Series. While I deeply hate the fact that M is recycling the same TTV8 again from the last generation M5. Did I use the word deeply too much?

I think you should give BMW the benefit of doubt on the engine. The S63 engine was arguably a generation ahead of Mercedes and Audi when they launched it.

So the others have really just caught up. It will be interesting to see where BMW can take the development of the power plant. My guess is it will still be the best Turbo V8 out there.

The weakness of the next M5 won't be its engine. It's the incremental nature of the chassis that bothers me more.

[DC-T]

Nice vid. Only Benz I'd consider is a Viano, and that's Until BMW make one...

[Used2be]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

I think you should give BMW the benefit of doubt on the engine. The S63 engine was arguably a generation ahead of Mercedes and Audi when they launched it.

My guess is it will still be the best Turbo V8 out there.

I second this thought. I don't know why Dave is so down on BMW for continuing with this very powerful engine. With some durability tweaks like improved rods and pistons they will be able to fight the horsepower war for many years, if the other manufacturers play one-upmanship each year.

As Stealth says, the chassis is the concern. Imagine though, if the new AWD system is strong and handles better than the Audi or Mercedes sedans..... much more horsepower should be manageable, and hopefully BMW would give it to us!

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

I think you should give BMW the benefit of doubt on the engine. The S63 engine was arguably a generation ahead of Mercedes and Audi when they launched it.

So the others have really just caught up. It will be interesting to see where BMW can take the development of the power plant. My guess is it will still be the best Turbo V8 out there.

The weakness of the next M5 won't be its engine. It's the incremental nature of the chassis that bothers me more.

I'm more concerned with the car looks like a refresh, and can't really tell the new 5 series apart from the last. I'm not a speed freak with big heavy cars, but I like some bang(:

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I'm more concerned with the car looks like a refresh, and can't really tell the new 5 series apart from the last. I'm not a speed freak with big heavy cars, but I like some bang(:

Totally agree.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Used2be

I second this thought. I don't know why Dave is so down on BMW for continuing with this very powerful engine. With some durability tweaks like improved rods and pistons they will be able to fight the horsepower war for many years, if the other manufacturers play one-upmanship each year.

As Stealth says, the chassis is the concern. Imagine though, if the new AWD system is strong and handles better than the Audi or Mercedes sedans..... much more horsepower should be manageable, and hopefully BMW would give it to us!

To me even if the chassis is great. The looks are a deal breaker.

The G30 looks like a middle managers car. And with the M5 body kit it will just look like a souped up middle managers car.

[gmfive]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

To me even if the chassis is great. The looks are a deal breaker.

The G30 looks like a middle managers car. And with the M5 body kit it will just look like a souped up middle managers car.

I think that very understated nature of the looks is what has been its hallmark all these years. I don't think that any generation m5 was a stand out screamer looks-wise.

My gripe has been with the weak exhaust and the fake active sound. Those are just plainly unacceptable for any generation m5.

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by gmfive

I think that very understated nature of the looks is what has been its hallmark all these years. I don't think that any generation m5 was a stand out screamer looks-wise.

My gripe has been with the weak exhaust and the fake active sound. Those are just plainly unacceptable for any generation m5.

You can look at all the model changes vs. the updates the new car was always 100% redo not lip stick. So basically the so-called new model will look like 2012 F10, and you know they will sell a LCI to add the stuff they held back on? That's my gripe give us a new car vs. another LCI which all this car is from a look perspective with the same motor. This is their first launch of a new car and it will look like a refresh of the 2012 model. See below. I would love a new M5, but no way I'm buying a car that looks the one I had in 2013(:

https://www.autoevolution.com/bmw/m5/

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

To me even if the chassis is great. The looks are a deal breaker.

The G30 looks like a middle managers car. And with the M5 body kit it will just look like a souped up middle managers car.

What's wrong with a middle manager(:

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

What's wrong with a middle manager(:

Nothing but it's not who I am.

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Nothing but it's not who I am.

I just asked, my old boss is worth 50M drove a Hyundai. I was not poking just trying to associate job position by the car a person drives that's all.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I just asked, my old boss is worth 50M drove a Hyundai. I was not poking just trying to associate job position by the car a person drives that's all.

Yes I recognize that there is no correlation. You just need to drive around Buckhead to notice that. My neighbor for instance has a new Tesla P100D with all the whistles, a Range Rover SVR, and two 1990s 3 series models that he also likes driving from time to time.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Used2be

I second this thought. I don't know why Dave is so down on BMW for continuing with this very powerful engine. With some durability tweaks like improved rods and pistons they will be able to fight the horsepower war for many years, if the other manufacturers play one-upmanship each year.

As Stealth says, the chassis is the concern. Imagine though, if the new AWD system is strong and handles better than the Audi or Mercedes sedans..... much more horsepower should be manageable, and hopefully BMW would give it to us!

That's the thing brother, they are not upgrading the rods or pistons at all. They are still going to be cast made parts. Crankshaft will be forged same as before though.

Guys, like many have already stated, a lot of people feel that the F90 M5 is more like an LCi update to the F10 M5, and I feel the same way. Case in point is the engine and also how what BMW is doing to the engine relates to the changes made to the .2 Porsche Turbo engine, which was a true LCi update for the Porsche Turbo. We will get small upgrades here and there that will make the S63tu engine better and more powerful for sure but nothing dramatic. I think there will be a newly designed water pump, new oil pump, new turbos, newer and better designed cooling systems, and of course different software mapping for the F90 M5 engine. These kinds of updates are things that should be done for an incremental update to a car and not a whole new generation of the car. When the next generation 2020 Porsche Turbo comes out will people want the same engine from the 991.2 Porsche Turbo but with a few tweaks and improvements? I don't think so.

Now what would make the S63tu re-use acceptable for the F90 M5 is some major changes. For example perhaps the following:

- Increase the cooling system substantially by adding new cooling technology that has not been used before. Perhaps something like a dedicated secondary water cooling system for the intercoolers using ice?

- Add turbos. Somehow integrate additional turbos for the engine. Perhaps a smaller third turbo to help eliminate turbo lag or the addition of electrically powered turbocharger(s).

- Increase Redline. Do a major rework of the engine internals to handle a higher redline and thus make the engine perform with a wider powerband and have a more exotic exhaust note. Perhaps an 8,000rpm or something, that would have been awesome. After all if McLaren can make an 8,500rpm redline work on a turbo engine, why can't BMW? Oh that's right because they are cheap and don't want to spend money on R&D.

- Adding KERS to the Drivetrain. I know not a direct part of the engine itself, but if they would have lightened the chassis up even more, by adding say all aluminum doors, or even carbon fiber doors, and other chassis lightening, they could add a small battery pack to power a KERS system.

- Forged Internals. Nuff said.

- Camless engine technology. BMW M could have partnered with Konigsegg and used their new Camless technology which has some gigantic benefits.

But nope, ///M is doing nothing to dramatically change the engine and instead will do a bunch of small stuff to make it slightly better. Would it make sense financially to dump millions of dollars to dramatically change or improve the engine in the next M5? No probably not, but did it make financial sense back in 2002 to dump millions into developing an F1 inspired 5.0L V10 for the E60 M5? No probably not, but they did and it makes that car far more enjoyable for owners.

Other things that I wish could have been done with the F90 M5.

- Hydraulic coilovers, just like the Ford GT has to instantly raise and lower the front end for getting over curbs and achieving better handling.

- Active Aerodynamics, just like the Huracan Performante utilizes or the Aston Martin DB11. Also I had an idea for front fender vents just like the Porsche 911 GT3RS has, but make those vents active and utilize electrically powered flaps to open and close them. I believe the that the body of Sports Sedan can be wide enough to make this work and look aesthetically pleasing at the same time.

- More advanced Aerodynamic technology. Things like making the underbody a smooth surface to increase airflow around the vehicle. Also just like the Ford GT has. No Sports Sedan has ever had this design, yet it would be so simple to integrate and wouldn't increase costs at all probably.

These are just some of the innovative ideas I have for a Sports Sedan. BMW was innovative with each generation M5, but for this F90 M5 we just get a trick AWD system that can have a RWD mode and a slight reduction in weight from the F10 M5 as the major points of innovation. Oh and a Carbon Fiber Roof. Where's the real innovation? I hope they prove me wrong.

[stealth.pilot]

There is also four wheel steering which is truly a game changer in my opinion. It will mean the AWD M5 will handle like an M3.

I think you're short changing the innovation.

The engine was never the issue with this car. If all you want is a new engine then you are in a minority. Most people want an M5 that drives more like a sports car: an M5 that's chuckable into corners, that can allow you to start accelerating out of the corner at the apex, that is sharper on turn in, and that feels glued to the road. That's what BMW has been working on.

The other things you mentioned above sound great. But those are exotics car features. The M5 has always been about bang for buck.

[gmfive]

Also, one with better sound. That's an important part of the driving experience. Then there're cosmetic things like skinny front seats to allow for some rear seat legroom.

I agree that the engine has never been a problem, it is a rather strong point.

As far as exterior looks and similarity between F10 and F90, I'd point to its competitors - both the E63 and Panamera took similar evolutionary routes with their newer models. We can and shouldn't encourage lazy designers who can and should clearly be doing more than just touch ups but most likely, this isn't their to bear. It seems that business-wise, the German big-3 have started to play safe(r) and that's showing in all their products.

Who can forget how much excitement the E60 M5 had generated back in its day with its V10 and new design? Dave, man your frustration is well and truly heard. We're not justifying their risk aversion that's too apparent for all to see.

[CarlosM4]

If the M5 F90 really comes with 4 wheel steering (haven't seen this anywhere though), it will completely murder the E 63. Everyone praises the E 63 current dynamics because it is that good, but 4 wheel steering in a lighter car, will make the E 63 look like a complete useless pig.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by CarlosM4

If the M5 F90 really comes with 4 wheel steering (haven't seen this anywhere though), it will completely murder the E 63. Everyone praises the E 63 current dynamics because it is that good, but 4 wheel steering in a lighter car, will make the E 63 look like a complete useless pig.

Don't think it has four wheel steering.