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      11-03-2014, 05:06 PM   #1
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Wow, another fuel pump failure, this time the HPFP -- Update, now it's the DME

Car started up last night and ran horrible, misfiring and then the drivetrain malf came up, drive moderately. This morning it started up and ran smooth but the CEL was on and the car ran OK so no tow truck this time.

Anyway, good thing for the warranty and while it's in they are going to take care of the recall issue.

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UPDATE

11-10 It's a week now and they have totally bypassed Dinan and know that isn't an issue. They are working with BMW on it and think it might be the DME. They will know more tomorrow.

Last edited by wrsbmw; 11-10-2014 at 08:47 PM..
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      11-04-2014, 06:49 AM   #2
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Sorry to hear this!
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      11-04-2014, 07:11 AM   #3
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Sorry to hear this!
Me too, I am tired of things breaking, I am probably going to get rid of it while it's still new enough to fetch a decent price.
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      11-04-2014, 09:32 PM   #4
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Got the car back this afternoon and drove it away and 10 miles later it failed again. Took it back after it died in the middle of Lamar. Same problem, running rough and then it fails with drivetrain malf drive moderately. Wouldn't even start back up at first and had a tough time getting the car into park. It did start once I got it into park and then smoothed out but I took it back to the dealer anyway, no telling what it will do next.

This is pretty bad, it's why I got rid of the first X5 and the 535i. This will most certainly be my last BMW. Too bad because until this summer it had been a pretty good car but it does have too many idiosyncracies (well documented in these forums) which I have been willing to overlook up until now but no longer. I may just take the lousy offer the used guys at BMW gave me of $58k. I don't feel the car really is worth much at this point, it's nothing but trouble. I am sorry I wasted the money modding it and I sure should have taken the $70k in trade. Oh well, live and learn, bye bye BMW.
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      11-04-2014, 09:53 PM   #5
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Just a suggestion might be to perhaps try a difference source for your fuel?

I feel your frustration against BMW, but you are running an aftermarket piggy back essentially, which throws some hard to troubleshoot variables into the mix. Most people on the forum are not reporting HPFP issues in great numbers. .

Seeing you are from Austin, perhaps a new BMW dealer is in order. Not all service departments are created equal.

I know the dealership's where I frequent wouldn't give the car back without an extensive test drive with drive ability issues you are trying to fix.

Good luck with repairs!
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      11-04-2014, 11:04 PM   #6
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Everyone on these forums will be sorry to see you go if that is in fact what happens. Will be a big loss for the M5 BMW community here.

Although if my memory serves me this is the third time for the fuel pump is it not (once initially, then the 2 different times on this occasion)? Wouldn't that technically suffice for some sort of 'lemon' law? It sure seems like your particular vehicle has a slew of problems after all.

Regardless of what ends up happening if you need any assistance from us at Dinan you know where to reach out too.
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      11-05-2014, 02:43 AM   #7
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Sorry to hear that William. Well you'll have to drive the pcar on our country runs.
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      11-05-2014, 06:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
Everyone on these forums will be sorry to see you go if that is in fact what happens. Will be a big loss for the M5 BMW community here.

Although if my memory serves me this is the third time for the fuel pump is it not (once initially, then the 2 different times on this occasion)? Wouldn't that technically suffice for some sort of 'lemon' law? It sure seems like your particular vehicle has a slew of problems after all.

Regardless of what ends up happening if you need any assistance from us at Dinan you know where to reach out too.
Yes, it might and we may look into that. Unfortunately there are two hpfp's, one on each side so this may be the other side now. The other fuel pump that failed was the one in the gas tank. I will see what they tell me when it is returned but it might just be easiest to sell it and forget about it. I have not had good luck with the BMWs in terms of reliability, this isn't just one car. The 535i before this was just as bad as was the X5 3.5i. The N54 and N55 engines seem to have a lot of problems. Otherwise I really like the way the cars are put together.

The SA told me they have replaced several hpfps lately, one on a 750li and another on a 550i. This is a general BMW problem not a specific M5 problem. I knew about it when I bought the cars and I had hoped it wouldn't be an issue for me.
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      11-05-2014, 06:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by boots View Post
Sorry to hear that William. Well you'll have to drive the pcar on our country runs.
Thanks, I figured that would be OK with you guys since you let the Blake run the Vantage. Anyway, I am better off just having one car I think. Two cars for myself is more than I really need.
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      11-05-2014, 06:54 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Netwon View Post
Just a suggestion might be to perhaps try a difference source for your fuel?

I feel your frustration against BMW, but you are running an aftermarket piggy back essentially, which throws some hard to troubleshoot variables into the mix. Most people on the forum are not reporting HPFP issues in great numbers. .

Seeing you are from Austin, perhaps a new BMW dealer is in order. Not all service departments are created equal.

I know the dealership's where I frequent wouldn't give the car back without an extensive test drive with drive ability issues you are trying to fix.

Good luck with repairs!
I don't think the piggyback or the dealership is the problem. Both of them have done their job. These are component failures which are individual items. The car is running within it's operational parameters. I have wondered about the fuel issue and repeatedly asked if parking outside could be a problem with some condensation and I was told no. I have had the same issue with the N54 and N55 engines and it has been different components that were replaced. On the 535i they replaced both turbos, the coils and the injectors. The turbos were at 23k, the coils at 37k and the injectors at 42k. I got rid of the car for the M5 with 45k on it. I put the Dinan flash on it at about 43k and enjoyed it.

I don't believe the Dinan products had anything to do with the bad experiences I have had with BMW engines. Let me be real clear about that. The 2011 X5 3.5i had the same issues and no tuning was ever done to it. It looks like my X5. 5.0i was the best vehicle I got from BMW as it had 22k and no trouble when I traded it.
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      11-05-2014, 09:21 AM   #11
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These are pretty rare. BTW if you are posting a thread commenting on reliability like this, then I think from an intellectual integrity standpoint you should call out the fact that your car is tuned by an aftermarket vendor.

It seems that most of the people on here with engine problems are people who have tuned their cars. I'm running the standard 560hp and proud to do so.
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      11-05-2014, 09:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrsbmw View Post
I don't believe the Dinan products had anything to do with the bad experiences I have had with BMW engines. Let me be real clear about that. The 2011 X5 3.5i had the same issues and no tuning was ever done to it. It looks like my X5. 5.0i was the best vehicle I got from BMW as it had 22k and no trouble when I traded it.
BMWs 6 cylinders had a known HPFP issue. The V8s have been typically very reliable. I believe your issue is related to the stress of the tune on the components.
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      11-05-2014, 09:34 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
BMWs 6 cylinders had a known HPFP issue. The V8s have been typically very reliable. I believe your issue is related to the stress of the tune on the components.
This isn't the only v8 that has had the issue according to the SA. I think we should see a lot more hpfp failures on this forum if that is the case. It has certainly crossed my mind because I didn't have the initial problem until after I put the Dinan components on the car. However, as a thirty year practicing engineer, I know that the failures of the hpfp in the other series bear more on this than Dinan. The design of the component is very similar in all cases. It's just scaled for speed and volume delivery in the particular engine is my bet.
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      11-05-2014, 09:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
These are pretty rare. BTW if you are posting a thread commenting on reliability like this, then I think from an intellectual integrity standpoint you should call out the fact that your car is tuned by an aftermarket vendor.

It seems that most of the people on here with engine problems are people who have tuned their cars. I'm running the standard 560hp and proud to do so.
Rare? Not for me, I had two engines that did the same thing on the previous cars I owned with the N54 and N55 engines. The N55 had to be towed to the dealership at least twice and the N54 failed in the middle of the road similar to what happened on Lamar but it only went to four cylinder operation so I was able to maneuver safely off the road. Not so in the most recent failure here.

As to the additional stress issue, that is a ridiculous assertion given that these components have been replaced and are under no significant stress unless being driven hard and I haven't been doing that. I ran four quarters with the car three weeks ago and have put about 800 miles on it since then. Blaming the tune is just applying post hoc logic where it doesn't really belong. It's basically a fatuous argument without any data to support it.
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      11-05-2014, 10:48 AM   #15
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Bummer about your car. Totally understandable why you are fed up.

HPFP failures have plagued recent BMWs (and other manufacturers) for sure but they seem to be less common for the M5 as opposed to the many six cylinder BMW engines.

Not clear one way or another if the tune has anything to do with it but it adds more variables to the equation for sure.

Hope you work out something that will work out for you. A F80 M3 would be a good complement to your TTS and Cayenne TS.
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      11-05-2014, 04:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by wrsbmw View Post
Rare? Not for me, I had two engines that did the same thing on the previous cars I owned with the N54 and N55 engines. The N55 had to be towed to the dealership at least twice and the N54 failed in the middle of the road similar to what happened on Lamar but it only went to four cylinder operation so I was able to maneuver safely off the road. Not so in the most recent failure here.

As to the additional stress issue, that is a ridiculous assertion given that these components have been replaced and are under no significant stress unless being driven hard and I haven't been doing that. I ran four quarters with the car three weeks ago and have put about 800 miles on it since then. Blaming the tune is just applying post hoc logic where it doesn't really belong. It's basically a fatuous argument without any data to support it.
Well I have had 2 S63tu cars neither tuned and no failures at all. 1 N63, Dinan tuned, and that didn't fail.

But your data-point is one more for tuned M5 with power train failure. If your car wasn't tuned it would negate my hypothesis, but as is it supports it.
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      11-05-2014, 05:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
Well I have had 2 S63tu cars neither tuned and no failures at all. 1 N63, Dinan tuned, and that didn't fail.

But your data-point is one more for tuned M5 with power train failure. If your car wasn't tuned it would negate my hypothesis, but as is it supports it.
You can't be serious..........

But whatever the outcome, it's not going to be my problem.
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      11-05-2014, 05:50 PM   #18
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You did not comment on my mention of bad fuel source. If you have had a similar problem across several cars switching up where you frequent for fuel is a good idea. I have a friend who frequented the same stations and his Audi RS4 V8 (VF Supercharged/tuned) would hit and miss like the coil packs where dead (Common VW issue). In the end we changed the all 8 coil packs only to have him say 1 month later only after he ditched where he was fueling did the missing go away.

The F10 M5 has 2 high pressure pumps on each fuel rail. You have mentioned one HPFP and one LPFP have failed. If you are having multiple failures in separate components on the same system as an engineer you can conclude:

a) dealer does not know how to replace part/didn't replace part in question/follow up drive ability test
b) BMW has no quality control on outside suppliers and you got a faulty new component (doubt they build them in-house)
c) something upstream of both pumps is bad, eg) something in your tank that shouldn't be there you. Above mentioning your low pressure pump failed as well lead me this option.

The problem you come across in "C" is finding a dealer who will take the $$$ risk to ensure your fuel system is clean. Trying to get the BMW mother-ship to pay for this under warranty is hard. No simple test to prove bad fuel or contaminates at the dealer level.

I hope this ends well for you.

[For future reference saying you are a practicing engineer does not prove much without the discipline behind it. (Chemical, Mech, Geological, Civil, Aero ******* It does however accomplish coming across the wrong way, discrediting everyone else and leaving peoples backs up. Leading to a back and forth volley of comments that will get you no where.]
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      11-05-2014, 07:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netwon View Post
You did not comment on my mention of bad fuel source. If you have had a similar problem across several cars switching up where you frequent for fuel is a good idea. I have a friend who frequented the same stations and his Audi RS4 V8 (VF Supercharged/tuned) would hit and miss like the coil packs where dead (Common VW issue). In the end we changed the all 8 coil packs only to have him say 1 month later only after he ditched where he was fueling did the missing go away.
I buy gas from different stations, two in my neighborhod, one a Valero and one a Shell. I use the Shell when I want to wash the car because it's more expensive but it has a touchless wash. Supposedly Vpower produces a little more HP than other premiums but we have 93 here in Texas with 10% ethanol. I travel all over the state and so a lot of different gas has been run through the car. If it was from a bad station around my home I would have expected it to show up in every car but the X5 never had a problem nor has my old Lexus LS430 which has run off the Valero gas for 9 years and neither did any of the other Lexus we have owned over the years we have used these stations. The issue with the 535i wasn't hpfp although that was a common problem on those models.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Netwon View Post
The F10 M5 has 2 high pressure pumps on each fuel rail. You have mentioned one HPFP and one LPFP have failed. If you are having multiple failures in separate components on the same system as an engineer you can conclude:

a) dealer does not know how to replace part/didn't replace part in question/follow up drive ability test
b) BMW has no quality control on outside suppliers and you got a faulty new component (doubt they build them in-house)
Well I think it has only one hpfp per bank of four cylinders. The tech report said the CEL showed misfire on cylinders 5,6,7 and that the right bank hpfp showed only 6 bar while the left bank showed 50 bar. He wrote that he replaced the right hpfp and both sides showed 50 bar.

When the car was towed in earlier in the summer they first replaced the low pressure sensor and that didn't help. The car didn't start working until they replaced the pump in the fuel tank. I assume they drained the tank and probably could see if there was anything bad in the gas but they didn't mention that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netwon View Post
c) something upstream of both pumps is bad, eg) something in your tank that shouldn't be there you. Above mentioning your low pressure pump failed as well lead me this option.

The problem you come across in "C" is finding a dealer who will take the $$$ risk to ensure your fuel system is clean. Trying to get the BMW mother-ship to pay for this under warranty is hard. No simple test to prove bad fuel or contaminates at the dealer level.

I hope this ends well for you.
This was my first thought on the first failure. I asked about condensation because I never parked the car outside until I bought the Porsche and this happened almost as soon as I parked it outside. I have repeatedly raised this concern and each time they said it shouldn't be an issue. As to something just getting into the tank from bad fuel, don't you think it would just cause another failure right away? The car has been driven nearly 1000 miles since the fuel pump was replaced in the tank. That would be several tanks of gas at city mileage, probably three or four.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Netwon View Post
[For future reference saying you are a practicing engineer does not prove much without the discipline behind it. (Chemical, Mech, Geological, Civil, Aero ******* It does however accomplish coming across the wrong way, discrediting everyone else and leaving peoples backs up. Leading to a back and forth volley of comments that will get you no where.]
Electrical and Computer with a MSEE in signals and systems but it's not meant to prove anything but simply to qualify my thought process. I am not non-technical and I approach a problem like this systematically from the data. Using post hoc logic to assign the problem to Dinan is fatuous.
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      11-05-2014, 08:21 PM   #20
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Drivetrain Malfunction

My 13 is in the shop for the 2nd time recently with Drivetrain Malfunction. HPFP replaced, car didn't last 100 miles before issue occurred again. In my case, cant imagine its a fuel quality issue, always 93 octane, and no issues with my 13 X5 5.0 with petrol from same stations. As far as condensation, my car is garaged except for random trips to Highlands where she sits outside for a few nights at a time. At this point, not sure what dealership is doing, but I have faith they will fix the issue, or suggest I pick out a new one with deposit refunded as they did with another model I had issues with (completely different issues unrelated to drivetrain, HPFP).
In the meantime, any and all light being shed on these issues regarding my car and or others with similar issues is greatly appreciated.
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      11-05-2014, 09:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bnicely View Post
My 13 is in the shop for the 2nd time recently with Drivetrain Malfunction. HPFP replaced, car didn't last 100 miles before issue occurred again. In my case, cant imagine its a fuel quality issue, always 93 octane, and no issues with my 13 X5 5.0 with petrol from same stations. As far as condensation, my car is garaged except for random trips to Highlands where she sits outside for a few nights at a time. At this point, not sure what dealership is doing, but I have faith they will fix the issue, or suggest I pick out a new one with deposit refunded as they did with another model I had issues with (completely different issues unrelated to drivetrain, HPFP).
In the meantime, any and all light being shed on these issues regarding my car and or others with similar issues is greatly appreciated.
Any piggyback or tune?
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      11-05-2014, 10:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrsbmw View Post
The tech report said the CEL showed misfire on cylinders 5,6,7 and that the right bank hpfp showed only 6 bar while the left bank showed 50 bar. He wrote that he replaced the right hpfp and both sides showed 50 bar.
I would question how through their testing methods are. Most dealers do not have access to a dyno so under load testing becomes a problem unless they are doing a test drive with instrumentation attached. Having said that the HPFP is a mechanical pump driven off the exhaust cam, which should be a works or doesn't.

At high load & low engine speed (accelerating) our HPFP's can develop 200 bar to get into the cylinder and atomize the fuel.

As for the tuning angle removing it short term for testing wouldn't be that bad an idea to rule it out. From looking at the Dinan package for the F10 M5 it shouldn't be that hard to have the dealer temporarily by-pass the Dinan unit while leaving it physically in the car. Dinan please comment on this.

Please keep us up to date next time your car returns from the shop.

Good Luck!
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