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      11-13-2012, 07:47 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maupineda View Post
I agree with his last statement, however all he says about the "nature" of the car is nonsense to me. It is always the choice of the driver and in no way an auto gives more control over the power train.
Can't agree with you more, I just don't get the purist statement its rubbish. I am not some crazy lunatic "purist" I just like to drive MT cars, is that so hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by doc19 View Post
Agreed... this is my concern with the new m3/4, there have been reports that the computer does a good job of hiding lag with the DCT in the m5, however no computer to hide it with the manual.

@Amleto63

On public roads I'm not going to get any of the speed benefit from the DCT, but with a 6mt even a hop over to the grocery store can be fun as I rev match pulling into the parking lot. I think that's what it comes down for me, the DCT is lightning fast but the 6MT is just, fun.
Not sure if you owned the V10 M5 but while there is an ever so slight lag in this car but you really have to look for it. However while the V10 was NA there was an "RPM lag" - unless that car was screaming above 5K+ rpm it really felt doggish in nature.

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Originally Posted by bradone1 View Post
Good article on MT and the fact that people just aren't being taught as children anymore... I'm assuming alot of our DCT peers were simply never introduced?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/us/man...ack/index.html
This I know for a fact and was hoping to start a MT free training class for the family and friends - they all ask me how to works. My wife and I are one of the few who know how to operate a clutch/pedal.

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Originally Posted by krispykreme View Post
Simple. I just don't want DCT.

Its same reason why i don't like a lot of electronics on the car too. I am not fond of steering response setting on the new M5 either.

Some time simpler is better.
If you think about it soon enough this world will be controlled by robots and computers - we will simply be passengers of technology. I feel that this M5 in MT is one of the last of its kind when it comes to luxury wrapped in simplicty/control/experience.


*** In conclusion this is the last DCT versus MT debate I ever respond to!!!
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      11-13-2012, 08:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by krispykreme View Post
Actually it does.

I am not sure why Carlos did heel and toe. But F10 does rev match when down shift in manual.

So BMW did take away some fun.
LMAO that's pretty sad. I thought it was cheezy when Nissan and their SyncroRev Match did it in the 370Z and now the M5? Looks like BMW is trying to kill the MT by taking away the fun. First Active Sound now auto-rev match.../facepalm
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      11-13-2012, 09:57 AM   #47
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It's hardly a heal-toe when you mash the clutch pedal ... then the brake pedal and then blip the throttle Just looked like someone dicking about with the pedals to me.
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      11-13-2012, 10:12 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
LMAO that's pretty sad. I thought it was cheezy when Nissan and their SyncroRev Match did it in the 370Z and now the M5? Looks like BMW is trying to kill the MT by taking away the fun. First Active Sound now auto-rev match.../facepalm
The M5 rev matches in normal and Sport. Sport plus, you're on your own. I have the manual and I consider myself a purist(old fashioned) and also own a .2 GT3RS. The reason why a purist will buy a car like this is becuase thats what they like. I needed a comfortable car for commutes and family. I could have gotten a Lexus. Given BMW offers the closest thing to a purist's luxury car (I guess this would be it), Im gonna go for it. From Dunkin Donuts to Illy, I won't put sugar in my coffee.

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      11-13-2012, 10:38 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by s4awd View Post
The M5 rev matches in normal and Sport. Sport plus, you're on your own. I have the manual and I consider myself a purist(old fashioned) and also own a .2 GT3RS. The reason why a purist will buy a car like this is becuase they it's what they like. I needed a comfortable car for commutes and family. I could have gotten a Lexus. Given BMW offers the closest thing to a purist's luxury car (I guess this would be it), Im gonna go for it. From Dunkin Donuts to Illy, I won't put sugar in my coffee.
I guess I don't see why they would bother adding an assist for downshifting. While I don't agree with it, I could see it on a car like the 370Z because it's likely to attract a much younger crowd who just want a MT but won't likely learn all aspects of a manual transmission - downshifting included (obviously there will be those who will want to heel/toe downshift).

With something like the M5, you're likely going to see a more mature crowd who have experience with a MT and would want to use it properly without computer assist. I'm not saying this to be an elitist where "only real drivers should have a MT on a M5". My point is that the only people who would opt for a MT M5 are the enthusiasts (isn't that why BMW even made this an option in the first place?) and they would prefer to do everything with the shifter and clutch without the aid of a computer.
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      11-13-2012, 11:45 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
Not true. I was in the market for an E46 M3 a year ago and the manuals were on average cheaper.
Completely wrong. It is not even for discussion. Go look at all the common car selling venues.
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      11-13-2012, 12:35 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amleto63 View Post
I really do not understand why not following the technology state of the art!
I see only drawbacks using the MT and I personally have no limitations with AT but benefits. And fast driving is much more efficient and funny using both feet for throttle and brakes control.
Just because there is newer 'state of the art technology' doesn't mean we all want to use it. The DCT is an impressive piece of technology and can certainly shift faster than a traditional manual, though it comes at the expense of driver involvement. Yes, you can still manually shift the DCT with the paddles or the console shifter, but the feeling is not the same as you get by rowing through the gears of a traditional manual accompanied by your footwork of the clutch brake and gas pedals. Those of us who still prefer the traditional manuals know the DCT is quicker, we just don't care. Other benefits of traditional manuals is that you have complete control of the drive-train, plus there is much less technical complexity to worry about compared to the DCT.

If I were able to afford a new M5, I would definitely be ordering it with a 6MT.
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      11-13-2012, 01:03 PM   #52
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i've always been in the 6MT camp, but after driving this car on pristine german and austrian tarmac, there is no question my driving enjoyment is greater with the DCT. no matter what your 6MT skill level, DCT is better; it is faster - coming into switchbacks, mashing the brake, seamlessly downshifting and immediately getting back on the gas. that in my opinion is how this car is meant to be driven. fast and hard. and faster is always better. if you don't think so, why bother getting a 560hp car? and guess what, when you don't want hard, you can tame it down with DCT. can't really drive a 6MT tamely.
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      11-13-2012, 01:32 PM   #53
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An M5 or should I say the new M5 should be only DCT. Manual belongs to the past. If someone wants to enjoy driving a manual, then let he drive a truck with 16 speed. To me, I'll only buy a BMW with a DCT transmission. At the end, technology rules!
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      11-13-2012, 01:58 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
An M5 or should I say the new M5 should be only DCT. Manual belongs to the past. If someone wants to enjoy driving a manual, then let he drive a truck with 16 speed. To me, I'll only buy a BMW with a DCT transmission. At the end, technology rules!
Yes, because shifting a massive truck is the same as shifting a road car...
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      11-13-2012, 02:01 PM   #55
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Review makes sense, but for daily driver usage leaving a dct m5 in drive or even sequential with paddles has no appeal to me.

The m5 with no MT option does not make this car more desirable than a cls panny gts or even an s6.

Obviously a personal opinion but choosing an m5 with an MT makes it easy for me to decide on what to buy because there is no other option with a MT. Slam dunk for bmw to keep the MT purists. 95% of my time in this car I will be ok having a less than perfect shift pattern. The other 5% of the time I would be wishing for more garage space to have a track car that doesn't weigh so much.
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      11-13-2012, 04:58 PM   #56
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He said something that makes sense that some of these cars, with the increase of horsepower, require a double clutch to match the speed, and the power.
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      11-13-2012, 05:18 PM   #57
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Bottom line here it's a matter of preference, and nothing more. I owned a 2002 M3 which was great to drive, and now the M5 is hands down better car to drive. The DCT is flawless, and freaking hoot to drive. The paddles are pretty sweet also, and I say uh what you enjoy. But I disagree with the purest concept if that is the case why own a Ferrari or Lambo? It's a 4000 pound car, and clearly I don't want to be changing gears with my wifey or clients in the car just my two cents. The end of the day the DCT is better on the track if that's your choice, and it's faster if you desire speed. Well hell let's bring back the shifter on the steering wheel with a three speed tranny. DCT all the way for me. All in all enjoy your rides.
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      11-13-2012, 06:49 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradone1 View Post
Bah! 6MT for me always or I won't buy it, if this is the last year I am glad i got it and will buy m3's from now on. No disrespect but all the DCT drivers can't point and shoot their cars and use the little buttons on the steering wheel all they want.

For me it's not about going fast in a straight line, there is nothing better than downshifting on a turn from 5 to 3, with your hand and foot, and getting it perfect to fire out of the hole

Sorry you guys may make fun of me but I would rather have a connection with a car, I really cannot drive an automatic anything precisely.... I can drive it but there is no control for me. Probably has something to do with the fact that I have driven manuals all my life.

Just my opinion, I thought the review was great, he's got a sharp tongue though,
Sums up my feelings precisely. Never owned an automatic in my life either.
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      11-13-2012, 10:51 PM   #59
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Good review. I would be one not to choose (if I get the chance to) the manual on the M5. The M3 however is a different story. I had two e46 M3's a SMG and a manual and I loved the manual
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      11-13-2012, 11:14 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
An M5 or should I say the new M5 should be only DCT. Manual belongs to the past. If someone wants to enjoy driving a manual, then let he drive a truck with 16 speed. To me, I'll only buy a BMW with a DCT transmission. At the end, technology rules!
That's a stupid thing to say. Right now I have a 335is DCT and a manual 135i, I've been exclusively driving my 335is for the past two weeks but yesterday I got back into the 6MT 135i for the first time and had the most ridiculous grin on my face the entire time. When I got home, I drove past my house and into the hills for another 15 minutes because I just didn't want to get out of it and the manual transmission was a huge part of that.

God I'm gonna miss the 1 once someone buys it.
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      11-14-2012, 12:51 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
An M5 or should I say the new M5 should be only DCT. Manual belongs to the past. If someone wants to enjoy driving a manual, then let he drive a truck with 16 speed. To me, I'll only buy a BMW with a DCT transmission. At the end, technology rules!
People like you have me praying the apocalypse actually does come this year. Are you fucking serious?
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      11-14-2012, 01:01 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by positiveions View Post
He said something that makes sense that some of these cars, with the increase of horsepower, require a double clutch to match the speed, and the power.
A double clutch system isn't in itself stronger than a single clutch system, it's just less violent when shifting and quicker. The most powerful drag cars at the Texas mile run traditional clutch setups and they slam gears hard every shift. Besides, it's torque that destroys transmissions. The traditional clutch/flywheel setup I bought used for my 240 was in a car making 855whp/750wtq that was daily driven and beaten to shit all the time over a 2 year span.
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      11-14-2012, 01:08 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nugent View Post
i've always been in the 6MT camp, but after driving this car on pristine german and austrian tarmac, there is no question my driving enjoyment is greater with the DCT. no matter what your 6MT skill level, DCT is better; it is faster - coming into switchbacks, mashing the brake, seamlessly downshifting and immediately getting back on the gas. that in my opinion is how this car is meant to be driven. fast and hard. and faster is always better. if you don't think so, why bother getting a 560hp car? and guess what, when you don't want hard, you can tame it down with DCT. can't really drive a 6MT tamely.
LOL maybe you can't

And I'm sorry but if an M car is supposed to be the most true example of the "Ultimate Driving Machine," shouldn't you be able to actually drive it? If you can't rev match, heel and toe, etc then you aren't truly driving - you're just steering. And faster is most definitely not always better. Driving feel > speed. That's why you'll see so many people tens of thousands more for a GT3 over a GTR.
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      11-14-2012, 10:00 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by G2G View Post
so he actually launched the car in 2nd gear?!
No, he dumps the clutch at 2k in 1st with the pedal on the mat, then lets wheel spin occur through a short lived 1st gear run.

In this launch scenario, the forward speed of the car never fully matches the wheel rotational speed (there's still some spin occurring even when you grab 2nd). The idea is that by dumping at a low RPM, you'll rely on lower power to moderate wheel spin, rather than the throttle.

This may not be the most optimal technique, but it's often more consistent. In a car like the M5, moderating the throttle on launch can take a *lot* of practice. There's so much power on tap, and you're dealing with a turbocharged engine, so the torque curve shoots up at low RPM as the turbo spools. While in motion, the turbo lag is managed well, but from a full stop, there's no avoiding it. These types of launches will yield more consistent results.
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      11-16-2012, 11:48 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by nugent View Post
the last line pretty much sums it up. very well stated.
++++1

So, what does the old M5 driver go for now? There are no more lithe sedans?
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      11-16-2012, 11:14 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-421
Quote:
Originally Posted by nugent View Post
i've always been in the 6MT camp, but after driving this car on pristine german and austrian tarmac, there is no question my driving enjoyment is greater with the DCT. no matter what your 6MT skill level, DCT is better; it is faster - coming into switchbacks, mashing the brake, seamlessly downshifting and immediately getting back on the gas. that in my opinion is how this car is meant to be driven. fast and hard. and faster is always better. if you don't think so, why bother getting a 560hp car? and guess what, when you don't want hard, you can tame it down with DCT. can't really drive a 6MT tamely.
LOL maybe you can't

And I'm sorry but if an M car is supposed to be the most true example of the "Ultimate Driving Machine," shouldn't you be able to actually drive it? If you can't rev match, heel and toe, etc then you aren't truly driving - you're just steering. And faster is most definitely not always better. Driving feel > speed. That's why you'll see so many people tens of thousands more for a GT3 over a GTR.
so you don't understand me. can't doesn't mean inability, it means unwillingness to drive 6MT tamely. why don't you chime in again after you've driven a DCT and 6MT M5.
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