Dinan Stage 1

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

I was fully expecting the BMS set at 3.5 on 93 octane to be as fast or faster than the stage 1 Dinan . I have fully defended the BMS on several occasions on the forum and it was effective at mKing my car faster . I decided to switch because of throttle modulation issues I noticed on track and the strip with the BMS and a limp mode issue on track from high EGT . It was apparent from when I looked at the harness for the Dinan and BMS the difference between the products technically are far more than I thought . The Dinan ECU has factory looms that tie directly into each banks ECU . It does far more than fool the TMAP sensor like the BMS and looks it , really quality parts . I expected quality equipment what I didn't expect was the Dinan stage 1 IS FASTER significantly than the BMS set to 3.5 on 93 octane . The BMS makes more tq down around 3 k but that came with slight delay then tq surge especially when trying to modulate the throttle or coming off boost, it also would cause a delay in mid rpm shifts in 1st and 2nd gear . The Dinan has stock throttle response , the DCT shifts instantly again in ANY situation and the car pulls significantly harder than the BMS above 5k RPM . It's enough where it is very obvious that the car is faster( > 30 hp at 6k ) .I am fully pleased with it so far and its worth it to me just for the increased drivability and safety alone . (10/10 DCT function and throttle modulation for the Dinan, really worlds different between the two ) When the weather cools off again to a neutral DA I will do full testing in my level location as numbers will be the definitive word .

Steve Dinan took notice of your post and wanted to address it directly. He thought a more thorough explanation of what you were experiencing was in order. His response is below.

"Thank you for noticing the smother operation of the Dinan ECU when compared to the competition. I thought a technical explanation of why it is so smooth might be of interest. Just to clarify the reason why you are experiencing better throttle response in general and ultimately what feels to be “more” power is based on the complexity and better control of engine tuning parameters of the DINANTRONICS system as a whole.

The DINANTRONICS Performance Tuner is MUCH more than just intercepting signals as some seem to think. There are more correction factors and calculations going on in the background of our box than anything else we have seen on the market thus far. We compensate for every necessary variable so the factory ECU is not fighting itself trying to correct mismatched variables and ultimately robbing you of power.

When Dinan is done tuning on the dyno we then go out on the road and do extensive tuning to improve performance. The road environment is different! You have better cooling on the engine, intercooler as well as more ram air. This results in better cylinder filling (more pressure in the cylinder) and requires slightly less boost to avoid excessive detonation. When you are done tuning on the road the car accelerates faster but will show a lower number on the dyno. We believe we are selling acceleration not dyno numbers.

Our numbers on a dyno may not be the max numbers out there but there is a reason. If we were to add that extra boost that other companies run, the engine will be into the knock control system so much that you can feel the correction it is making. In addition the other units on the market do not do fuel correction they rely on the O2 sensor and knock control system to drag the mixture to the correct level. The problem with this is when you change gears it takes some time for the factory ECU to determine what this correction is; resulting in a flat spot until it figures it out. This is what you were feeling. The Dinan ECU has advanced fuel control features that add fuel to the engine so we are not relying on the factory ECU to compensate for the lack of fuel. We also have a feature that adds fuel only during gear changes to quench detonation that occurs from the spike in load as a result of the gear change. The better fuel control provides dramatically better drivability. This higher level of tuning for the road and lack of pauses on gear changes make the Dinan car faster even if you measure a lower number on the dyno. Even if more boost is a little faster what good is it if the car has bad drivability."

[EuroKar]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Steve Dinan.
That is very useful information and helps us understand much more of what is going on with your system.
And your information is true. From switching from the BMS unit, all the drivability "symptoms" myself and others were experiencing have disappeared and now driving with the Dinantronics, I can feel how much more crisp the acceleration is and the overall smoothness of the shifting. The power is absolutely there and plenty of it ! I have taken this F06 M6 to a few driving events in CA and have no problem running the competition. Cant wait for more products to be released.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Steve Dinan took notice of your post and wanted to address it directly. He thought a more thorough explanation of what you were experiencing was in order. His response is below.

"Thank you for noticing the smother operation of the Dinan ECU when compared to the competition. I thought a technical explanation of why it is so smooth might be of interest. Just to clarify the reason why you are experiencing better throttle response in general and ultimately what feels to be more power is based on the complexity and better control of engine tuning parameters of the DINANTRONICS system as a whole.

The DINANTRONICS Performance Tuner is MUCH more than just intercepting signals as some seem to think. There are more correction factors and calculations going on in the background of our box than anything else we have seen on the market thus far. We compensate for every necessary variable so the factory ECU is not fighting itself trying to correct mismatched variables and ultimately robbing you of power.

When Dinan is done tuning on the dyno we then go out on the road and do extensive tuning to improve performance. The road environment is different! You have better cooling on the engine, intercooler as well as more ram air. This results in better cylinder filling (more pressure in the cylinder) and requires slightly less boost to avoid excessive detonation. When you are done tuning on the road the car accelerates faster but will show a lower number on the dyno. We believe we are selling acceleration not dyno numbers.

Our numbers on a dyno may not be the max numbers out there but there is a reason. If we were to add that extra boost that other companies run, the engine will be into the knock control system so much that you can feel the correction it is making. In addition the other units on the market do not do fuel correction they rely on the O2 sensor and knock control system to drag the mixture to the correct level. The problem with this is when you change gears it takes some time for the factory ECU to determine what this correction is; resulting in a flat spot until it figures it out. This is what you were feeling. The Dinan ECU has advanced fuel control features that add fuel to the engine so we are not relying on the factory ECU to compensate for the lack of fuel. We also have a feature that adds fuel only during gear changes to quench detonation that occurs from the spike in load as a result of the gear change. The better fuel control provides dramatically better drivability. This higher level of tuning for the road and lack of pauses on gear changes make the Dinan car faster even if you measure a lower number on the dyno. Even if more boost is a little faster what good is it if the car has bad drivability."

Thank you for the thorough explanation Steve , everything makes perfect sense .

[Bottch77]

Wow! The review from Gmd2003 and the explanation from Steve Dinan... Thank you.

I have no way of comparing the Dinan stage 2 on my M5 to the competition though I can attest that it is smooth and absolutely provides a significant increase over factory output.

These reviews and explanations make me proud to own a "Dinan Tuned BMW".

Great stuff.

[JPMD]

Honestly for me this is also great news.

I'm coming out of a MB CLS63 RWD with Renntech tune and although it was an absolute beast it totally lacks the type of performance refinement of the BMW. The M5 is better balanced, has better wheels and tires, brake feel, 1000% better transmission, better differential (comp pkg) to go along with better looks (IMO), better electronics and nicer cabin , materials etc.

Although the torque numbers don't seem like they compare on paper the M5 made torque at lower RPM and has a much flatter and sustained curve. In fact before the Renntech tune the CLS did not like to be over 5000-5500 RPMs With the tune the torque was actually to much for the RWD platform.

I like most here got the itch for more so I got the BMS. At the time the Dinan was not available for comp pkg cars. You can definitely feel the power increase with the BMS but I will be switching to the Dinan and look forward to experiencing it. The decision was somewhat difficult until the new tweaks and power numbers just came out and also some of the head to head battles with the competition and first hand accounts.

It is also great to see a company so passionate about their products and back it up with first class support and warranty.

To not go overboard with what I want/need i'll stick with just the tune with Dinan products (at least for now). I have done the the charcoal filter delete, BMS filter. For added sound (to go along with comp pkg exhaust and exhaustmeister and get closer to the AMG) and added power I will also get DPs

looking forward to my setup
I'd also like to thank the guys on this forum for posting their prior experiences and recommendations

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by JPMD

I like most here got the itch for more so I got the BMS. At the time the Dinan was not available for comp pkg cars. You can definitely feel the power increase with the BMS but I will be switching to the Dinan and look forward to experiencing it. The decision was somewhat difficult until the new tweaks and power numbers just came out and also some of the head to head battles with the competition and first hand accounts.

It is also great to see a company so passionate about their products and back it up with first class support and warranty.

To not go overboard with what I want/need i'll stick with just the tune with Dinan products (at least for now). I have done the the charcoal filter delete, BMS filter. For added sound (to go along with comp pkg exhaust and exhaustmeister and get closer to the AMG) and added power I will also get DPs

looking forward to my setup
I'd also like to thank the guys on this forum for posting their prior experiences and recommendations

If/when you do switch we are sure you will find the difference to your liking. If you have any questions on anything feel free to ask here or call us directly. Always more than willing to help as is the entirety of the M5/M6 board here it seems.

I must say they that the M5 really turns into a beast with an upgraded suspension. You listed a bunch of power mods but nothing for handling. Ask anyone that put on a Dinan Coilover or even any other brand and they will tell you in a heartbeat that that is the must have upgrade (even over a tune) Sway bars are equally as impressive at reducing the body roll but they don't give you the sexy drop. WARNING: I'm about to give a shameless plug. We do have a 15% sale this month so you can pick up ours at a decent price. There is no way you could regret that upgrade.

[VintageFerrari]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

If/when you do switch we are sure you will find the difference to your liking. If you have any questions on anything feel free to ask here or call us directly. Always more than willing to help as is the entirety of the M5/M6 board here it seems.

I must say they that the M5 really turns into a beast with an upgraded suspension. You listed a bunch of power mods but nothing for handling. Ask anyone that put on a Dinan Coilover or even any other brand and they will tell you in a heartbeat that that is the must have upgrade (even over a tune) Sway bars are equally as impressive at reducing the body roll but they don't give you the sexy drop. WARNING: I'm about to give a shameless plug. We do have a 15% sale this month so you can pick up ours at a decent price. There is no way you could regret that upgrade.

Please describe how the Dinan coilover suspension and sway bars compare to the factory Competition Package suspension setup in terms of road feel, feedback, steering feel, turn-on, body roll/body lean, and overall handling.

[JPMD]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

If/when you do switch we are sure you will find the difference to your liking. If you have any questions on anything feel free to ask here or call us directly. Always more than willing to help as is the entirety of the M5/M6 board here it seems.

I must say they that the M5 really turns into a beast with an upgraded suspension. You listed a bunch of power mods but nothing for handling. Ask anyone that put on a Dinan Coilover or even any other brand and they will tell you in a heartbeat that that is the must have upgrade (even over a tune) Sway bars are equally as impressive at reducing the body roll but they don't give you the sexy drop. WARNING: I'm about to give a shameless plug. We do have a 15% sale this month so you can pick up ours at a decent price. There is no way you could regret that upgrade.

Thanks
What is Dinan's take on wheel spacers?

Most use wheel spacers for aesthetics. Is there any advantage or more importantly any disadvantage to putting them on?

[padrino]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Steve Dinan took notice of your post and wanted to address it directly. He thought a more thorough explanation of what you were experiencing was in order. His response is below.

"Thank you for noticing the smother operation of the Dinan ECU when compared to the competition. I thought a technical explanation of why it is so smooth might be of interest. Just to clarify the reason why you are experiencing better throttle response in general and ultimately what feels to be “more” power is based on the complexity and better control of engine tuning parameters of the DINANTRONICS system as a whole.

I would like to echo the response of others, thanks for the detailed explanation.. I have been a user of BMS products for years as well, previously using Dinan on my N54 but moving to the JB4 and never looking back... It seems with the F10 M5 Dinan really has their act together with a 1st clas product, BMS hasn't invested the time in the F10 M5 and it shows.... Also very impressed with the feedback of other users and time invested in the forum...

This thread motivated me to move to a Dinan tune on my CP M5, thanks for the details on the tune....

Dinan_Engineering:

Just read the latest from BMS on another thread, really has me curious now since Steve kicked the door open with his earlier response, and I suspect it motivated some of the BMS details.. Keeping an open mind here, very interested in the commentary on the below:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

As as side note BMS only offers a Stage1 tune for this platform but it's funny to read all this talk about s63 "advanced" fuel control and related assertions as they apply to other piggybacks.

The fuel control being talked up is biasing of the wideband o2 sensors by applying a voltage through a resistor, and biasing of the fuel pressure input of a few tenths of a volt. BMS pioneered these mechanisms for adjusting closed loop fueling in 2007 and they are available on all of their tunes, even the simple Stage1 tune, provided the wires are connected to the control box. The reality is the boost increase we're working with here with their Stage1 tune is not enough to max out the long and short term fuel trims which is why BMS hasn't included the fuel biasing harness with the s63 tune. These so called advanced piggyback boxes I'm reading about don't even include crank position offsetting to directly adjust timing advance as is offered on the JB4 G5 board. It will be interesting one of these days when someone does a bench test and reveals what is _really_ going on in
each black box.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by padrino

I would like to echo the response of others, thanks for the detailed explanation.. I have been a user of BMS products for years as well, previously using Dinan on my N54 but moving to the JB4 and never looking back... It seems with the F10 M5 Dinan really has their act together with a 1st clas product, BMS hasn't invested the time in the F10 M5 and it shows.... Also very impressed with the feedback of other users and time invested in the forum...

This thread motivated me to move to a Dinan tune on my CP M5, thanks for the details on the tune....

Dinan_Engineering:

Just read the latest from BMS on another thread, really has me curious now since Steve kicked the door open with his earlier response, and I suspect it motivated some of the BMS details.. Keeping an open mind here, very interested in the commentary on the below:

The BMS stage 1 just ties into the TMap sensors and changes the voltage that's it . The Dinan ties directly into the ECU looms with factory connectors and changes multiple factors in real time . It's actually altering the AFR targets and short term fuel trims not just wiring the fuel pump to run more based off the 02's . Bottom line is the BMS makes power but it's downright Mickey Mouse compared to what Dinan offers for the S63 TU in maintaining stock drive ability, AFR's and consistent power especially on throttle tip in off boost and on shifts . For someone who tracks his cars the Dinan performs better and more consistently period . Drive the two back to back and anyone will see

[boots]

I will see in a few days since spinney returned home.

[EuroKar]

Originally Posted by padrino

I would like to echo the response of others, thanks for the detailed explanation.. I have been a user of BMS products for years as well, previously using Dinan on my N54 but moving to the JB4 and never looking back... It seems with the F10 M5 Dinan really has their act together with a 1st clas product, BMS hasn't invested the time in the F10 M5 and it shows.... Also very impressed with the feedback of other users and time invested in the forum...

This thread motivated me to move to a Dinan tune on my CP M5, thanks for the details on the tune....

Dinan_Engineering:

Just read the latest from BMS on another thread, really has me curious now since Steve kicked the door open with his earlier response, and I suspect it motivated some of the BMS details.. Keeping an open mind here, very interested in the commentary on the below:

BMS rarely gets onto the forums from what I see.
You can never talk to anyone from BMS either. I've sent many emails asking some specific questions to their products and all I got was half answered questions.
That is 1 thing that has always bothered myself and other BMS users I've spoke with.
A little more information from the company representative themselves would prob answer questions and leave us with a little more faith in their products.
Their stuff works but, sometimes a little more feedback works even better.

[padrino]

Originally Posted by EuroKar

BMS rarely gets onto the forums from what I see.
You can never talk to anyone from BMS either. I've sent many emails asking some specific questions to their products and all I got was half answered questions.
That is 1 thing that has always bothered myself and other BMS users I've spoke with.
A little more information from the company representative themselves would prob answer questions and leave us with a little more faith in their products.
Their stuff works but, sometimes a little more feedback works even better.

To be fair generally you need to go over to the forum Terry frequents to get responses (n54tech.com), I have always had great luck over there, although I will say I havent seen the investment of time in responding to questions about the M tunes as I have the JB4 based tunes (BMS' real bread and butter it seems)...

[m6beast]

Originally Posted by padrino

To be fair generally you need to go over to the forum Terry frequents to get responses (n54tech.com), I have always had great luck over there, although I will say I havent seen the investment of time in responding to questions about the M tunes as I have the JB4 based tunes (BMS' real bread and butter it seems)...

+1
I've always had great customer service from Terry and his products and even had returned emails within 20-30 minutes, even on a Sunday when in need.

I can say I'm happy with his products and love that I can push the envelope. Everyone has their pluses and minuses and at the end of the day it's who fulfills your needs. You have those who all they care about is a warranty and then theres those who want the most out of their cars.

I would like to see some back to back numbers between the two for I feel the true test will be at the track and some Vbox numbers. I can say my car is in the 11.0's and it took BMS products to get it there. As time passes I feel someone will break the 11 second mark and I'm pretty sure BMS will be involved some way shape or form.

Like I said before everyone has their choice and it's truly about them getting their money's worth and customer service that fulfills their needs.

Props to Dinan and Burger for giving us all products that we can appreciate and enjoy.

G

[tven99]

just the intake makes a huge difference, i was at the fayetteville drags trip the other weekend and i ran with perfect starts, just as soon as i got near the 1/4 mark the other m5 with intakes just went past me like i was standing still

[m6beast]

Originally Posted by tven99

just the intake makes a huge difference, i was at the fayetteville drags trip the other weekend and i ran with perfect starts, just as soon as i got near the 1/4 mark the other m5 with intakes just went past me like i was standing still

Yeah those are my custom intakes I installled on his car, they make huge power as the mph increases do to the setup.

Knocked off .3 seconds off his 1/4 time and gained 2-3 mph depending on his 60ft.

G

[tven99]

@m6beast i wasn't able to stick around i had to leave, M wanted the name for the laser/radar detector, i was talking about the passport 9500ci. and yeah man on paper it doesn't seem as much but in reality he was flying past me. Whats your thought on the dinan stage 1?

[m6beast]

Originally Posted by tven99

@m6beast i wasn't able to stick around i had to leave, M wanted the name for the laser/radar detector, i was talking about the passport 9500ci. and yeah man on paper it doesn't seem as much but in reality he was flying past me. Whats your thought on the dinan stage 1?

It's really up to you and what youre looking for. As for my experience I haven't messed with dinan much so don't have much experience to give factual advice or some kind of info. There are more BMS units out there have have proven gains and happy customers but with that said some have gone to dinan do to the way the car feels. Now does it make more power then BMS not sure for no one has actually done before and after runs to prove their change. Either way it comes down to what you feel comfortable with and how far you want to go.

For dinan you will be limited with options and still feel your car is performing tobyou expectations. But if you want to push the envelope BMS is the way to go.

Hope that helps even though I know I don't have much factual information to help you decide.

Good luck.

G

[EuroKar]

Originally Posted by tven99

@m6beast i wasn't able to stick around i had to leave, M wanted the name for the laser/radar detector, i was talking about the passport 9500ci. and yeah man on paper it doesn't seem as much but in reality he was flying past me. Whats your thought on the dinan stage 1?

Dinan stage 1 is like what BMS is set to around 3.5 as far as "power" feels.
But drivability on how the engine actually performs and the transmission shifts is completely different then with BMS.
Remember that BMS is only plugging into the vehicles temperature/pressure sensor located on both front charge boxes. And the engine computers are trying to compensate for this manipulation without causing issues to the engine.
Dinan is plugging directly into both engine computers to offer a much more controlled software adaptation to take place.
There is a huge difference in driving both vehicles.
Maybe contact Dinan directly or your local BMW dealership and see if anyone in the area has this installed for a ride along.. could be worth a try to ask.

[Northern X5M]

I only got 3 passes at the track with the BMS set to 3.0 before my axle CV joint decided to part ways. The car acted funny on launch, it launched hard for a split second, then fell on its face for another split second and then took off like a bat out of hell. Anyone else with the BMS experience this?

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Northern X5M

I only got 3 passes at the track with the BMS set to 3.0 before my axle CV joint decided to part ways. The car acted funny on launch, it launched hard for a split second, then fell on its face for another split second and then took off like a bat out of hell. Anyone else with the BMS experience this?

Yes it fell on its face in first when I tried to modulate , and there was a major delay after the 1/2 shift before it was back to full power . That and similar issues on track and in daily use led me to switch to Dinan . I'm still waiting on stage 2 , but the Stage 1 in my CP feels significantly faster already . I'll do testing this weekend when conditions are the same as my last BMS test .

[tven99]

I spoke to my SA, nobody has done it that they know of on the M5 but they told me that its warranty friendly. After giving it a lot of thought and actually driving my car around town on M mode i wonder if i would really be able to utilize all that power without just dramatic wheel spin. I can tell you these cars on Drag radials shoot like a bullet!