Is carbon ceramic brakes worth it?

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Beast27

Thinking someone with $ to burn should get the kit and post a thread on all what's needed to do the conversion. Parts, labor, etc. Would be interested in this project at the right price...

Evan on M4post did the full retrofit on his M4 and he has the most experience with it.
I actually was going to do this retrofit on my M6, but after talking to Evan, I realized it was a very extensive work that most shops has no experience doing. He recommended that the dealership do the work.

Ultimately, the dealership sells a "retrofit kit", you can call them and inquire what's in the kit and attempt to copy it piece by piece. That's your best bet to ensure you have all the parts. Not all parts are complete replacements from the OE steel setup but we're talking about various bolts and stuff. IIRC, the items are

1. Rotors
2. Pads
3. Calipers
4. Booster
5. Lines
6. Clips (various)
7. Bracket
8. Bolts (various)

IIRC, item 4-8 easily will add up to $500-$600 worth of parts alone, and those are much harder to find pre-owned. Meaning you're paying BMW full retail for them.

Ultimately, I computed that an used set of items 1-3, and new set of 4-8 plus labor would still come out close to $8k to get it all installed at an indy who has never done the work before. 2x for labor if you have a dealership do it and YMMV of dealer williing to install used parts not part of a retrofit kit they want to sell you. The full retrofit kit is like $12k at the dealership excluding labor which likely is another $1k.


I decided against doing this retrofit due to the following reasons:

1. It's quite hard finding a used set with decent life, most sellers are not willing to weigh the rotor which is required. There is a seller on 6post selling a front set now, even his has 50% life left. There's also no assurance from the seller you'll get the full list of parts. I'm talking about clips, brackets and bolts. And you'll easily spend a week figuring out what you're missing, and then you run the risk of still needing more parts while your car is on the lift during install, which means downtime and more cost.

2. The next buyer of the car will discount the value of the CCB. Buyers of cars with CCB will always see CCBs as a major financial liability simply because of the cost of rotor replacement at around 60k after install.

3. CCBs are great for street use, but you'll kill your wallet the moment you take it to a track. Wear characteristics change with track use. Evan has logged his mileage on his CCBs as he tracks his M4. IIRC, he's on his 3rd set now.

4. When a shop works on the car, you need to ask them about their liability insurance. As someone has mentioned, you can crack a rotor if you bump it in the wrong spot. For smaller shops, if you ask, they might reject your work due to their insufficient insurance or they'll ask you to sign a waiver. At least that's what I'll do if I owned my own shop.

[G-M5]

Im sorry but what is "DD" ?

[JW_ATL]

Originally Posted by G-M5

Im sorry but what is "DD" ?

Daily Driver

[Beast27]

Appreciate the thorough write-up flying ace!

[Musashi]

They are to me. 70% less mass, 31lbs less fronts alone, will never go back to rust and dust. But I am also running the next gen 3D, and can never imagine running the resin stuff BMW sources for a few hundred $ per rotor and charges 10005 markup. After 18 months I have no discernible wear- 3Ds wear by friction, not oxidization. Amazing performance at -10, -20 and -30C. 49C-39C pic is after 2 kms grocery trip. Steels would still be -10 or so Squealing rusting and not even touching uniformly.

[autoxautox]

Originally Posted by Musashi

They are to me. 70% less mass, 31lbs less fronts alone, will never go back to rust and dust. But I am also running the next gen 3D, and can never imagine running the resin stuff BMW sources for a few hundred $ per rotor and charges 10005 markup. After 18 months I have no discernible wear- 3Ds wear by friction, not oxidization. Amazing performance at -10, -20 and -30C. 49C-39C pic is after 2 kms grocery trip. Steels would still be -10 or so Squealing rusting and not even touching uniformly.

Tell me more about this next gen 3D setup! Retrofit kit? My steel rotors are shot and now is the time.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by autoxautox

Tell me more about this next gen 3D setup! Retrofit kit? My steel rotors are shot and now is the time.

I have a thread on this - https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=23176483

Basically, there are two types of CCBs. chopped power carbon baked with epoxy. Costs brembo and any suppliers 350-400$ to sell for profit, then BMW Porsche etc all turn around asking 20-30,000 USD (e.g. PCCB). I also mentioned why the do that in the https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1667983

The second type has been in aerospace for decade+, and now simply cut smaller for cars: 3D. A bit like Ferrari are Surface transform, it is a woven carbon "wool like" format, pressed, then needled through 45 to 90degress with thousands of interlocking carbon threads. They then go for 2-3 months baking. The difference between resin and 3D is like between drywall and armoured concrete. BUT, unlike 7 days for resin, they take 2-3 months to bake. They never use resin- but CVI and natural gas pressure, so they do not wear by oxidization like resin (loosing weight) but literally friction. To give you an idea, since august 2018 I have no measurable depth loss on my 3D CCB despite riding them hard. AM still at 30mm. They are also more expensive than resin CCB (though still less than what BMW Porsche charge) about 4500-5000 USD the front set but will outlast the car and are x3 the conventional CCB lifespan. In contrast, I spent some 2500$ in BBK steels that often started acting up after winter or the ocasional storage. And I can assure you I have been almos tOCD about bedding and cleaning. BBK steels are terrible in winter, they shrink by 6-10 microns at the top, pads do not even contact the top 1"...

If I lived in warmer climates, and could buy resin CCBs at 500$ a rotor from suppliers, I probably would. But since I live in Canada, and salt and water are here 24/7 wintertime for months, resin CCBs are a bad proposition- squeal and poor cold performance. Not the 3D CCBs which I can warm up fast and retain a strong CoF.

Hopefully, mass commercialization of CCBs will bring their prices to true value, but it collapse the more profitable after market steel tech...

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Musashi

I have a thread on this - https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=23176483

Basically, there are two types of CCBs. chopped power carbon baked with epoxy. Costs brembo and any suppliers 350-400$ to sell for profit, then BMW Porsche etc all turn around asking 20-30,000 USD (e.g. PCCB). I also mentioned why the do that in the https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1667983

The second type has been in aerospace for decade+, and now simply cut smaller for cars: 3D. A bit like Ferrari are Surface transform, it is a woven carbon "wool like" format, pressed, then needled through 45 to 90degress with thousands of interlocking carbon threads. They then go for 2-3 months baking. The difference between resin and 3D is like between drywall and armoured concrete. BUT, unlike 7 days for resin, they take 2-3 months to bake. They never use resin- but CVI and natural gas pressure, so they do not wear by oxidization like resin (loosing weight) but literally friction. To give you an idea, since august 2018 I have no measurable depth loss on my 3D CCB despite riding them hard. AM still at 30mm. They are also more expensive than resin CCB (though still less than what BMW Porsche charge) about 4500-5000 USD the front set but will outlast the car and are x3 the conventional CCB lifespan. In contrast, I spent some 2500$ in BBK steels that often started acting up after winter or the ocasional storage. And I can assure you I have been almos tOCD about bedding and cleaning. BBK steels are terrible in winter, they shrink by 6-10 microns at the top, pads do not even contact the top 1"...

If I lived in warmer climates, and could buy resin CCBs at 500$ a rotor from suppliers, I probably would. But since I live in Canada, and salt and water are here 24/7 wintertime for months, resin CCBs are a bad proposition- squeal and poor cold performance. Not the 3D CCBs which I can warm up fast and retain a strong CoF.

Hopefully, mass commercialization of CCBs will bring their prices to true value, but it collapse the more profitable after market steel tech...

i read your thread, and I am now angry.

I saw a video how CCB molds are made, and I thought right away this cannot be more $1k worth of wholesale work involved.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

i read your thread, and I am now angry.

I saw a video how CCB molds are made, and I thought right away this cannot be more $1k worth of wholesale work involved.

That How its Made video two decades old I think. Manufacture is even faster today, all automated from chopped until workers packaging them. The point is keeping CCVs off the market so users do not dish the steel logistical supply chain.

The good news is that several manufacturers (two in Europe and several in Asia) are pushing hard to mass produce and sell CCBs. Brembo just introduced an uber expensive "lightweight" steel for Daimler.

https://www.brembo.com/en/company/ne...mbo-brake-disc

of course Brembo does not want us to know the truth that its easy and cheap to make car lifetime rotors. Period.

https://www.brembo.com/en/company/ne...p-competitions