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      05-25-2020, 05:19 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrit View Post
From my research, most people have been fine on the OTS maps. It also seems like the S63TU rods aren't inherently weak, but when you detonate at those power/tq levels, it makes sense something could go wrong.

Fuel quality, spark plugs and o2 sensor health play a big part. You should also be data logging regularly. There is no compromise here, you need to keep an eye on the health of these components every so often.

Don't want to have to worry about these areas as much? Go with a torque limiting map that also biases for a richer AFR than other tunes. My plan is to go with OpenFlash because of this.
The clutches will go out before a rod with a reputable stage 2 tune of nearly 700whp

And rod bearings are a weak point not the f'n rods bending the rods bend from having way too much torque on the low end ...boosting it up at fucking peak boost at 2000 RPM or some shit

yeah that's what jerks offs that upload off the shelf maps do, set crazy target values etc etc
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      05-25-2020, 05:21 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrit View Post
From my research, most people have been fine on the OTS maps. It also seems like the S63TU rods aren't inherently weak, but when you detonate at those power/tq levels, it makes sense something could go wrong.

Fuel quality, spark plugs and o2 sensor health play a big part. You should also be data logging regularly. There is no compromise here, you need to keep an eye on the health of these components every so often.

Don't want to have to worry about these areas as much? Go with a torque limiting map that also biases for a richer AFR than other tunes. My plan is to go with OpenFlash because of this.
You haven't been doing much research or you've been doing biased research if that's the conclusion you reached it's always the off-the-shelf maps
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      05-28-2020, 04:26 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrit View Post
From my research, most people have been fine on the OTS maps. It also seems like the S63TU rods aren't inherently weak, but when you detonate at those power/tq levels, it makes sense something could go wrong.

Fuel quality, spark plugs and o2 sensor health play a big part. You should also be data logging regularly. There is no compromise here, you need to keep an eye on the health of these components every so often.

Don't want to have to worry about these areas as much? Go with a torque limiting map that also biases for a richer AFR than other tunes. My plan is to go with OpenFlash because of this.
BM3 allows the user to Reduce Torque on any Gear from 0 to 100% with a simply click button lol. Better than anything I've seen, heck is OpenFlash still exist ?
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      05-28-2020, 05:52 PM   #114
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Posts like this put me off the F10 platform, and I've been through an S85 rebuild.

Reading about stock cars bending rods, tuned cars bending rods, it is a concern.
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      05-28-2020, 06:01 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryDog View Post
Posts like this put me off the F10 platform, and I've been through an S85 rebuild.

Reading about stock cars bending rods, tuned cars bending rods, it is a concern.
i hear that! but it's such a sexy car.
ive been looking at the f90 for 3 years (and 2.5sec 0-60 tuned is selling it to me) but i still think the f10 is aesthetically superior.. and its the same motor.. just no awd and inferior suspension(stock)
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      05-28-2020, 06:21 PM   #116
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The looks and suspension doesn't bother me, both can be improved on, but if there is a greater than a 50/50 chance of the engine failing then I am going to have to really consider not getting one and keeping my warrantied E60. I'd I got an F10 I would want to tune it (not bm3) so a warranty is pointless.
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      05-29-2020, 05:28 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryDog View Post
The looks and suspension doesn't bother me, both can be improved on, but if there is a greater than a 50/50 chance of the engine failing then I am going to have to really consider not getting one and keeping my warrantied E60. I'd I got an F10 I would want to tune it (not bm3) so a warranty is pointless.
If there was a 50/50 chance, BMW would be paying out for another lawsuit similar to the N63 and covering new engines for an extended period of time. it would be literally 1,000's of M5's with blown engines by now and would be all over the automotive news. I bet if someone searched the entire website for blown engine posts, the number would be less than 100. Double that for new engines done at BMW that we don't know about and you're still looking at 1%. Think those numbers are too small still, double again to 400 engines and it's still only 2%.

We see all of the bad stuff on the forums because that's where enthusiasts go to commiserate with fellow enthusiasts. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely risk. As with most BMW M engine problems, they get blown out of proportion (pun intended! haha).

Good luck in your search
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      05-29-2020, 05:55 AM   #118
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Those small number of blown engines could also be attributed to just one oil change having the wrong grade going back a bit,say at an indy that sealed it's fate further down the line, also there is the risk of mischievous interference from those other than a dealer, crazy I know but my experience of life shows that these types are around.
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      05-29-2020, 07:24 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryDog View Post
Posts like this put me off the F10 platform, and I've been through an S85 rebuild.

Reading about stock cars bending rods, tuned cars bending rods, it is a concern.
It doesnt bother me and I have an F10 M5 and a tune from OpenFlash
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      05-30-2020, 08:22 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryDog View Post
The looks and suspension doesn't bother me, both can be improved on, but if there is a greater than a 50/50 chance of the engine failing then I am going to have to really consider not getting one and keeping my warrantied E60. I'd I got an F10 I would want to tune it (not bm3) so a warranty is pointless.
definitely not 50/50; probably less than 10% of tuned cars and somewhere around 5% of stock cars.
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      06-01-2020, 04:08 PM   #121
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Posting my BM3 experience update, for what it's worth. I decided to remove the catless DP (Meisterschaft) & the stage 2 BM3 several months ago. As I'd posted before, it was just too much for a weekend fun car that didn't hit a track - huge sound, massive rattle & of course, insane power. As my mechanic was performing the uninstall, he noticed that one of my charge pipes had cracked & needed to be replaced. I don't have proof - but I suspect that the crack was the result of the CDP + BM3. This said, the entire experience ended up costing me a nice chunk of cash that I wasn't expecting to spend, so there's that. Definitely do your research before diving into these performance mods. I'm glad I did this but won't do it again LOL.
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      06-03-2020, 10:28 PM   #122
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Update to help provide some unbiased data to continue this healthy discussion.

I chose BM3 initially to use for the Dashboard and Auto-Logging features. I plan to stay stock and get a custom tune later on from one of the tuners that support BM3 - Cary Jordan or HCP, for example.

After running some logs of my stock tune, I had some minor concerns. The stock tune is not the best. Not only does it feel sluggish on Efficient throttle, but it has quite a bit of low-load knock (part throttle) which could possibly be false knock from drivetrain, suspension, or other noise. The ignition timing values across all four banks are really inconsistent with some throttle. The AFRs are far too lean at WOT for a turbocharged, direct-injected car (14-15).

Out of curiosity and to offer myself as a human sacrifice for the forum members, I loaded PTF's OTS Stage 1 93 octane map and ran it for a few days. Of course, I haven't been going balls-to-the-wall with it since this is for an experiment and I don't really want to kill My Precious.

So far, my datalogs look safer with the OTS map than they did with the factory tune.

Check out my logs below and share your thoughts:

BM3 Recommended Live Monitoring Parameters https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1722371

Disclaimer: I didn't do the best job of datalogging. Going forward, I will need to turn off DSC, change the suspension to comfort, add knock sensor voltages (both sensors) for hidden knock, and make sure I use the manual shift mode to go from 3rd gear - 1500 rpm to redline.
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      06-04-2020, 08:00 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x35250 View Post
Update to help provide some unbiased data to continue this healthy discussion.

I chose BM3 initially to use for the Dashboard and Auto-Logging features. I plan to stay stock and get a custom tune later on from one of the tuners that support BM3 - Cary Jordan or HCP, for example.

After running some logs of my stock tune, I had some minor concerns. The stock tune is not the best. Not only does it feel sluggish on Efficient throttle, but it has quite a bit of low-load knock (part throttle) which could possibly be false knock from drivetrain, suspension, or other noise. The ignition timing values across all four banks are really inconsistent with some throttle. The AFRs are far too lean at WOT for a turbocharged, direct-injected car (14-15).

Out of curiosity and to offer myself as a human sacrifice for the forum members, I loaded PTF's OTS Stage 1 93 octane map and ran it for a few days. Of course, I haven't been going balls-to-the-wall with it since this is for an experiment and I don't really want to kill My Precious.

So far, my datalogs look safer with the OTS map than they did with the factory tune.

Check out my logs below and share your thoughts:

BM3 Recommended Live Monitoring Parameters https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1722371

Disclaimer: I didn't do the best job of datalogging. Going forward, I will need to turn off DSC, change the suspension to comfort, add knock sensor voltages (both sensors) for hidden knock, and make sure I use the manual shift mode to go from 3rd gear - 1500 rpm to redline.
Excellent insight and really good to read, I understood that AFR ideally would be around 11, I am sure this is what I was advised by OFT

I can imagine that potentially the stock map has to be suitable for all countries and all fuel types and qualities so its quite likely that its not as 'focused' as it could be.

I also think a Stage 1 tune is a very safe option for a well maintained car, for me the issues always seem to start when the cats/downpipes are changed. I appreciate that this isnt always the case.
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      06-04-2020, 08:06 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x35250 View Post
Not only does it feel sluggish on Efficient throttle, but it has quite a bit of low-load knock (part throttle) which could possibly be false knock from drivetrain, suspension, or other noise. The ignition timing values across all four banks are really inconsistent with some throttle. The AFRs are far too lean at WOT for a turbocharged, direct-injected car (14-15).
Interesting stuff. When you logged in sport and sport+ (stock), did that change anything as far as the knock and/or timing values?

Also, my understanding is the efficient throttle setting lets the turbos spool down a lot more, whereas the sport and sport+ keep them spinning, which reduces lag, but is obviously less efficient.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OneExtra View Post
I also think a Stage 1 tune is a very safe option for a well maintained car, for me the issues always seem to start when the cats/downpipes are changed. I appreciate that this isnt always the case.
from an article on air-fuel ratio:
Quote:
You may consider an exhaust to be a minor upgrade, but if it gives significantly more flow and performance, the car will need more fuel to stop the engine running dangerously lean. Some engines automatically compensate to some extent when making changes like this, but conversely, many cars – turbocharged ones in particular – can run dangerously lean from a simple full exhaust system swap

Last edited by vafan13; 06-04-2020 at 08:52 AM..
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      06-04-2020, 12:56 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vafan13 View Post
Interesting stuff. When you logged in sport and sport+ (stock), did that change anything as far as the knock and/or timing values?

Also, my understanding is the efficient throttle setting lets the turbos spool down a lot more, whereas the sport and sport+ keep them spinning, which reduces lag, but is obviously less efficient.




from an article on air-fuel ratio:
With the stock map, there did not seem to be much difference between the three throttle modes. I wasn't able to get into WOT in Sport + because other traffic gets in the way pretty quickly! The IATs tend to get a bit higher in those modes, so I think the comparison becomes a bit harder. Most of the knock seems to take place at random under low load, so I'm not super concerned about them.

The AF ratio article makes sense. My car came with a better-flowing catback exhaust, so it can certainly affect fueling needs. Adding a catless or hi-flow downpipe would probably make that worse.

I ordered the NGK colder plugs to replace the OEM plugs. We'll see if that helps a bit with the timing values. The OEM plugs only have about 9k miles on them, but I want to see if it will reduce or eliminate the low-load knock and improve the ignition timing.

I still want to get a custom tune for my setup, but I'm torn whether to go back to the stock tune (which looks inferior) or stay on the OTS Stage 1 map. We'll see what it looks like once I install the colder plugs.

Again, my knowledge is a bit limited still. The F10 DMEs seem a bit more sophisticated than the Subaru ECU, but the principles are still the same. If any other veteran members want to chime in, that would be great.
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      06-04-2020, 04:02 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x35250 View Post
With the stock map, there did not seem to be much difference between the three throttle modes. I wasn't able to get into WOT in Sport + because other traffic gets in the way pretty quickly! The IATs tend to get a bit higher in those modes, so I think the comparison becomes a bit harder. Most of the knock seems to take place at random under low load, so I'm not super concerned about them.

The AF ratio article makes sense. My car came with a better-flowing catback exhaust, so it can certainly affect fueling needs. Adding a catless or hi-flow downpipe would probably make that worse.

I ordered the NGK colder plugs to replace the OEM plugs. We'll see if that helps a bit with the timing values. The OEM plugs only have about 9k miles on them, but I want to see if it will reduce or eliminate the low-load knock and improve the ignition timing.

I still want to get a custom tune for my setup, but I'm torn whether to go back to the stock tune (which looks inferior) or stay on the OTS Stage 1 map. We'll see what it looks like once I install the colder plugs.

Again, my knowledge is a bit limited still. The F10 DMEs seem a bit more sophisticated than the Subaru ECU, but the principles are still the same. If any other veteran members want to chime in, that would be great.
My plan has always been to get a Stage 1 OTS tune and then eventually get a custom remote tune from a reputable source for F10 M5's while on a rented dyno. If going this route too, did you just purchase the BM3 with one map? The custom tune can still be loaded through the platform I believe? I would always want datalogging capability.
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      06-04-2020, 07:43 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technician117 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by x35250 View Post
With the stock map, there did not seem to be much difference between the three throttle modes. I wasn't able to get into WOT in Sport + because other traffic gets in the way pretty quickly! The IATs tend to get a bit higher in those modes, so I think the comparison becomes a bit harder. Most of the knock seems to take place at random under low load, so I'm not super concerned about them.

The AF ratio article makes sense. My car came with a better-flowing catback exhaust, so it can certainly affect fueling needs. Adding a catless or hi-flow downpipe would probably make that worse.

I ordered the NGK colder plugs to replace the OEM plugs. We'll see if that helps a bit with the timing values. The OEM plugs only have about 9k miles on them, but I want to see if it will reduce or eliminate the low-load knock and improve the ignition timing.

I still want to get a custom tune for my setup, but I'm torn whether to go back to the stock tune (which looks inferior) or stay on the OTS Stage 1 map. We'll see what it looks like once I install the colder plugs.

Again, my knowledge is a bit limited still. The F10 DMEs seem a bit more sophisticated than the Subaru ECU, but the principles are still the same. If any other veteran members want to chime in, that would be great.
My plan has always been to get a Stage 1 OTS tune and then eventually get a custom remote tune from a reputable source for F10 M5's while on a rented dyno. If going this route too, did you just purchase the BM3 with one map? The custom tune can still be loaded through the platform I believe? I would always want datalogging capability.
Yes, I just bought the license with one OTS map. Once you have the BM3 platform, you can request a custom tune through the app directly to many of the collaborative tuners. The Dashboard (live-monitoring) is pretty good and the Datalogging is great. You can enable Auto-Logging from the Dashboard based on throttle input, which enables you to log at whatever pedal percentage you choose on a sliding scale.

Datalogging and live-monitoring is an absolute must. Your tune can be perfect, but if you have any underling mechanical issues that cause you to run too lean or too hot, you can still break some expensive stuff.
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      06-09-2020, 12:13 AM   #128
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Wow, this post really scares, I just put Catless DP, NGK 97506, and BM3, the car is still in the shop, but I plan to use it on stg 2, will this be safe?
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      06-09-2020, 01:42 AM   #129
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Wow, this post really scares, I just put Catless DP, NGK 97506, and BM3, the car is still in the shop, but I plan to use it on stg 2, will this be safe?
Depends how you drive it. Always use the correct fuel for your tune and don't get on the power from a low rpm. Maintenance is key aswell.
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      06-09-2020, 02:01 AM   #130
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Hey, a good tip, I stay a little calmer, from how many RPM the risk is reduced if I push the gas?
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      06-09-2020, 02:13 AM   #131
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Hey, a good tip, I stay a little calmer, from how many RPM the risk is reduced if I push the gas?
Ideally above 4k. If you get on the power at 2k you run a higher risk of bending a rod.
Someone more in the know will be able to answer the question more accurately than me though.
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      06-09-2020, 02:27 AM   #132
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any way, your advice sounds logic, we hope to receive more answers to understand where the risk is.
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