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      06-30-2018, 03:41 PM   #1
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Preventing rods from bending and engine damage.

Hi guys,

Any preventative measures that can be taken to prevent rods from bending when pushing power as opposed to rebuilding engine?
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      06-30-2018, 05:16 PM   #2
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Same here
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      06-30-2018, 11:07 PM   #3
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Use a proven tune and limit the torque
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      06-30-2018, 11:09 PM   #4
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Guys. Rods bend for a few reasons:

1. Just a lot of boost... this wonít happen until 900ft-lb torque at the wheels on this V8
2. The #1 season itís gonna bend is due to tuning. Pre-ignition, detonation etc. can cause even forged rods to bend

So...

1. Donít just go around flooring your 26psi map. Anything above 22psi you need to log first and ramp up
2. ALWAYS run 95 AKI or above. 100AKI for 25psi and 110AKI for 30psi
3. Maintain your plugs, oil and monitor general motor health like lealdown every 5K miles
4. Take an oil analysis every oil change (3K max if you are pushing 800-900hp)

My Frozen M5 lasted 20K+ miles at 800/800+
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      07-02-2018, 08:43 PM   #5
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I agree....increase octane with a booster like Lucas at every fillup.....and use top shelf oil like Total.......change and gap plugs at 0.020..every 15k miles
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      07-03-2018, 12:40 AM   #6
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Good info guys
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      07-03-2018, 01:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craze View Post
Use a proven tune and limit the torque
This. The key is to limit the torque and to not run excessive timing in the midrange. A lot of tune files I've seen retain the OEM ignition mapping which actually runs 1-2 deg too much timing at 22psi. Still doesn't knock which is why most tuners don't think to much about it. But you can make the same power with less timing and far lower peak cylinder pressures. Probably the biggest mistake people make is running methanol injection and letting the ECU run an aggressive timing map. It may be knock-free but it's certainly going to induce excessive wear and tear.
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      07-03-2018, 01:51 PM   #8
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I was always thinking that you'd keep torque at about 725-750nm from as soon as you can (about 2500rpm) and just keep it at that level for as long as possible - perhaps with Pure Stage 2?

That should let you keep 750nm all the way to 7000rpm which works out to a nice 740hp or 550kw. That'd be my ideal tune.
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      07-03-2018, 11:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotor_2000 View Post
Guys. Rods bend for a few reasons:

1. Just a lot of boost... this wonít happen until 900ft-lb torque at the wheels on this V8
2. The #1 season itís gonna bend is due to tuning. Pre-ignition, detonation etc. can cause even forged rods to bend

So...

1. Donít just go around flooring your 26psi map. Anything above 22psi you need to log first and ramp up
2. ALWAYS run 95 AKI or above. 100AKI for 25psi and 110AKI for 30psi
3. Maintain your plugs, oil and monitor general motor health like lealdown every 5K miles
4. Take an oil analysis every oil change (3K max if you are pushing 800-900hp)

My Frozen M5 lasted 20K+ miles at 800/800+
These cars bend rods at stock power levels...
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      07-04-2018, 11:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@RKautowerks View Post
These cars bend rods at stock power levels...
lol exactly

Its how quickly the s63tu delivers torque from the low end, add another 200-300lbs of torque and the same map structure on the low end and you're asking for trouble.


Or doing 200mph pulls where the air above 150 is like molasses making the engine work.

Best thing you could do is have lower torque

I'd say over 650+wtrq and aggressive low end power/ LONG 180-200pulls you're asking for when not if situation.
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      07-04-2018, 09:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iRlz View Post
lol exactly

Its how quickly the s63tu delivers torque from the low end, add another 200-300lbs of torque and the same map structure on the low end and you're asking for trouble.


Or doing 200mph pulls where the air above 150 is like molasses making the engine work.

Best thing you could do is have lower torque

I'd say over 650+wtrq and aggressive low end power/ LONG 180-200pulls you're asking for when not if situation.
This is where the S63Tu Shines baby !!! 120mph all the way 200 she doesnt stop pulling. gets addicting fast lol
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      07-05-2018, 10:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalM View Post
This is where the S63Tu Shines baby !!! 120mph all the way 200 she doesnt stop pulling. gets addicting fast lol
Which is cool and all till you make the rods push through dense air at 170,180,190+ mph. With 10-20% increased torque over factory all through the band

All one needs to do is look at the GTR platform and how them launching cars with 650wtrq on stock motor blows rods out of the block

and half mile stock motor cars making equally high amounts of torque and doing long 180+mph pulls and having the rods let go or bend.


Same concept here possibly even worse with how the torque comes on in these, and the weight its carrying which is +400lbs compared to a GTR.

Either way 650wtrq or above and abuse in either low or high high end seems to be asking for trouble zone.
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      07-06-2018, 05:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iRlz View Post
Which is cool and all till you make the rods push through dense air at 170,180,190+ mph. With 10-20% increased torque over factory all through the band

All one needs to do is look at the GTR platform and how them launching cars with 650wtrq on stock motor blows rods out of the block

and half mile stock motor cars making equally high amounts of torque and doing long 180+mph pulls and having the rods let go or bend.


Same concept here possibly even worse with how the torque comes on in these, and the weight its carrying which is +400lbs compared to a GTR.

Either way 650wtrq or above and abuse in either low or high high end seems to be asking for trouble zone.
i agree 650ish is the max, maybe a 700wtq map for 1/4 track days.
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      07-09-2018, 06:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@RKautowerks View Post
These cars bend rods at stock power levels...
Yes. In the US. Something is different you guys compare to Europe????
There is not that kind of issue. Big part is much much better fuel in europe. And in here Finland is world gratest fuel. 👍🏻
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      07-10-2018, 06:30 AM   #15
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The only cars making 750-800whp and NOT having blown up are the dyno queens. Pretty much every car making 750whp+ that actually did any real racing has blown up already.

Last edited by allmotor_2000; 07-11-2018 at 08:12 PM..
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      07-11-2018, 10:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotor_2000 View Post
The only cars making 750-800whp and NOT having blown up are the sumo queens. Pretty much every car making 750whp+ that actually did any real racing has blown up already.
Yup exactly what I heard privately All and nobody should doubt you're opinions / messages

you are pretty much the one who took the leap to push the platform forward.
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      07-11-2018, 03:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotor_2000 View Post
Guys. Rods bend for a few reasons:

1. Just a lot of boost... this wonít happen until 900ft-lb torque at the wheels on this V8
2. The #1 season itís gonna bend is due to tuning. Pre-ignition, detonation etc. can cause even forged rods to bend

So...

1. Donít just go around flooring your 26psi map. Anything above 22psi you need to log first and ramp up
2. ALWAYS run 95 AKI or above. 100AKI for 25psi and 110AKI for 30psi
3. Maintain your plugs, oil and monitor general motor health like lealdown every 5K miles
4. Take an oil analysis every oil change (3K max if you are pushing 800-900hp)

My Frozen M5 lasted 20K+ miles at 800/800+

Any good tuners you recommend in SoCal?
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      07-11-2018, 11:25 PM   #18
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Here's a good example of what we are doing to minimize engine stress on the S63Tu. Below is a dyno graph comparing our once stock 2015 F10 M5 with Competition Package with it the same car modified with a prototype OTS Stg1 tune and Ti exhaust (OEM downpipes with catalysts still installed):



The goal was to keep peak torque limited to ~550lbft while trying to maintain it as high in the rev range as possible. Results in a rather healthy ~630whp. But more importantly, the conservative torque in the midrange keeps charge temps cool which means less sensitivity to heat soak and higher knock resistance. This also makes the car easier to drive since there is no big whallup of torque in midrange that tends to bend rods and, at best, makes the car less manageable to drive hard.

Last edited by OpenFlash; 07-12-2018 at 11:16 AM..
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      07-12-2018, 08:15 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenFlash View Post
Here's a good example of what we are doing to minimize engine stress on the S63Tu. Below is a dyno graph comparing our once stock 2015 F10 M5 with Competition Package with it the same car modified with a prototype OTS Stg1 tune and Ti exhaust (OEM downpipes with catalysts still installed):



The goal was to keep peak torque limiter to ~550lbft while trying to maintain it as high in the rev range as possible. Results in a rather healthy ~630whp. But more importantly, the conservative torque in the midrange keeps charge temps cool which means less sensitivity to heat soak and higher knock resistance. This also makes the car easier to drive since there is no big whallup of torque in midrange that tends to bend rods and, at best, makes the car less management to drive hard.
I have been very closely following the tunes and tuners since the beginning and I have to the same conclusions that tuners like you and Allmotor have come to. When the torque curve is tuned to come on early and strong, drivetrains will suffer sooner or later. The recent write ups and dyno charts of the new M5 mimic exactly these results. Seems that you don't need gobs of torque to launch the car in a 1/4 mile situation but it is more important to keep the car together. AWD vs rear wheel drive for the average owner is only apparent in bad weather and an advantage in the 1/4 mile. But, as always, the driver can make all the difference in most cases. I had mine recently tuned and worked with the tuner to mimic your results coincidentally. Excellent work and real world logic.
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      07-12-2018, 09:58 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenFlash View Post
Here's a good example of what we are doing to minimize engine stress on the S63Tu. Below is a dyno graph comparing our once stock 2015 F10 M5 with Competition Package with it the same car modified with a prototype OTS Stg1 tune and Ti exhaust (OEM downpipes with catalysts still installed):



The goal was to keep peak torque limiter to ~550lbft while trying to maintain it as high in the rev range as possible. Results in a rather healthy ~630whp. But more importantly, the conservative torque in the midrange keeps charge temps cool which means less sensitivity to heat soak and higher knock resistance. This also makes the car easier to drive since there is no big whallup of torque in midrange that tends to bend rods and, at best, makes the car less management to drive hard.
Good job ! Cylinder pressure spikes at peak torque is asking for all kinds of failures. You still see those type tunes in the new M4 platform. Insane.
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      07-12-2018, 02:20 PM   #21
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I'd love to see that tune with Pure Stage 2. Keep torque to 550lbft for as long as possible - in the chart above it drops below 550lbft at about 5000rpm, if it could keep that flat until 6000rpm that would be great.
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      07-12-2018, 03:07 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craze View Post
Use a proven tune and limit the torque
What's a proven tune you are recommending?
I'm also interested.
Currently just switched to JB4 + BCM with bluetooth v3. Car has CBE and Intake.
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