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      06-23-2012, 07:21 AM   #45
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I am wondering why no one said ''For M5 price, i can buy a CTS-V and a daily beater for 25k-35k ''.
In my opinion, obviously the M5 is better but I wouldn't mind the CTS-V. My friend has it and its not bad. Cadillac has come a long way in refining the interior and the luxury features weren't bad either. Plus the ride was pretty comfortable as well.

PS, the CTS-V engine sounds so much better then the M5 but i guess you have to make sacrifices in owning the best
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      06-23-2012, 09:01 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.

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      06-23-2012, 09:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.
Totally inappropriate comment - nothing wrong with patriotism. Unfortunately, to this point, american car makers just haven't had the total package of refinement, interior quality, performance and technology that Germans have. I personally have never bought an American car. But, if all things were equal, I would rather spend my money on something domestic rather than import.

The longer I work and the more tax $ I dump into this country, the more I feel obliged to contribute to this country remaining economically relevant. The worst thing that could happen to our children is China becoming the next US, and the US becoming the next UK/France...dated, dinosaur with an oppressive tax/fiscal environment.
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      06-23-2012, 09:53 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by OBI_agent View Post
I am wondering why no one said ''For M5 price, i can buy a CTS-V and a daily beater for 25k-35k ''.
actually for the price delta you could have a Hennessey V700, which BTW is 707 hp... if thats your thing... for me thats in the 'law of diminishing returns' territory where you start to add HP by the hundreds and only gain a couple tenths in 0-60.
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      06-23-2012, 09:54 AM   #49
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One other downside to the CTS-V is durability. A friend bught the CTS-V Coupe as soon as they came out. His 6 speed manual broke in 5000 miles. Not just the clutch, but the whole transmission.
No one knows long term with the F10 but consider the E60 M5s at the Performance Center. They are 2 years past production and have been doing M Schools and Hot Laps day after day. They feel as tight as a new car too. An amazing feat in my mind.
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      06-23-2012, 10:01 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepTight View Post
My complaint is that it jettisons one of the M5's top three features and allows the CTS-V to avoid displaying what is unarguably its worst feature. If you've ever tried to manually shift the GML80 on the track using either the finger triggers on the back of the V's steering wheel or the gear selector, you'd see how profoundly that ancient transmission hobbles the V. As I said, I think R&T went manual to manual just to keep it interesting. That's all well and good, but the percentage of manuals versus dual clutch/automatics sold in both cars worldwide is astonishingly small and makes the test results less applicable for 95% of the people cross-shopping both cars.
Nicely said
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      06-23-2012, 11:31 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by wisesoul View Post
M5 is looking good, but not the win I expected after a rematch 4 later. Really thought the M5 would demolish the Caddy. Still remember reading the issue on the toilet thinking that the E60 M5 has done well for being a 4 year old car. Looks like I'll be doing the same, but for the CTS-V
You said toilet! I do think whenever the next review is done they'll use the proper tranny on the M5 so it can showcase its true colors on and off the track. Makes no since to do what they did in order to "level the playing field". That right there tells you what the better car is. GM can suck it. Albeit I give credit where credit is due. It's a great attempt but at the end of the day GM, hell Ford for that matter too can't engineer a car like the Germans! Or better stated they could if they really wanted to but choose not to. The reasons why is a whole different conversation.

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      06-23-2012, 01:17 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.
Completely ignorant and uniformed commenting by somebody who hasn't driven either car.

Until the day the F10 M5 is actually being delivered in the U.S. (and it still isn't by the way), with the exception of the Porsche Panamera Turbo S, the CTS-V is the fastest production sedan you can buy in this Country and has been since 2009. It's faster in a straight line than an E60 M5 or an E63 AMG, and it's faster than an E60 M5 or E63 through the curves too. It also stops better and takes a better line through corners. And if you don't believe me, come on up to Monticello Motor Club and watch the CTS-V's eat that track alive. Then watch us swap tires and drive home on New York State 17 in total comfort courtesy of the V's Delphi Magneride suspension--the same suspension system as the Audi R8 and the Ferrari 599.

You'll pardon me, but I've found that the best way to hide my ignorance on a topic is not to comment on things I know nothing about.

I'm now on the M5 bandwagon because I'm willing to pay for the extra 5% that the M5 delivers over the CTS-V, but the $35,000 price difference between a fully optioned M5 and a fully optioned CTS-V is about as vivid a real-world illustration of the law of diminishing returns as there is in the automotive world.
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      06-23-2012, 06:10 PM   #53
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Let's agree that the great majority folks who are going to buy a new M5 are not going to track the car, you buy an M3, 1M or something like that if you really want to track often. So whatever advantages that car may have as far as track times are really just magazine reading material. The reality for most is how it feels on the street, curvy country roads and highways, and it seems like the M5 has lost some of it's M flavor, Car and Driver rated it third behind the E63 and even the Audi S6 which won the comparo, this despite the fact the M5 was decisively faster. Yes the day has come that an AMG car has better handling as improbable as that seems, and that a RWD M5 is heavier than an AWD Audi S6, as impossible as that appeared a few years ago. The CTS-v is probably going to feel sportier in daily spirited driving, and I would venture to say that's as far as 95% of owners are willing to go. Impressive for the CTS-v at that price point, but again I would not buy it for a track car either. BTW the arcane 6 spd auto on the CTS-v has recorded 0-60 in 3.9 secs on all major mags much quicker than the 6 spd manual and also posted it's best lap at the Nurburgring, so it is not much slower than the DCT-7.
The M5 should never have weighed more than 3900 lbs, at 3800 lbs it would be truly amazing, it would not be difficult they only need to remove the gizmos they had to add because it's overweight, sort of a "Catch 22" syndrome.
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      06-23-2012, 08:05 PM   #54
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Juddholland or whoever only did a great job of proving his ignorance, not his point. Although I'm from Tennessee, having driven both the CTSV and the second to new M5 model, I would still take the M5 despite my southern pride and love of country music. I don't know many people who wouldn't that are from the south. I have a friend who owns a MB SLS AMG, Bentley super sport, bww 650i and the CTS-V. just shows you that it can hold its own in a garage next to those cars.

M5 ftw tho... Haha
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      06-23-2012, 10:11 PM   #55
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I have 2 observations related to this topic and thread

1) The author's tone in the article does not align well with the conclusion that the M5 is the better car. He clearly sounds more excited about the Caddy, but based on a definition of a sports sedan that prioritizes luxury and comfort, he seems forced to pick the M5. This review coupled with the review that placed the M5 last when compared to the MB and Audi symbolizes a clear shift in expectations for the M5. It has gone from a ferrari killer with 4 doors (E28 M5) to the ultimate sports sedan (E39 M5) to the balls to the wall F1 tribute (E60 M5). While I am unsure as to what type of legacy the F10 will leave, I wouldn't be surprised if it is amongst the least remembered of the generations 10 years from now, purely because it seems to have detached the driver relative to the prior generations.

2) The posts in this thread parallel comparisons between the GTR and the 911 turbo when concerning the value propositions of the M5 versus the Caddy.

When confronted with the GTR which bested the turbo in performance, many porsche enthusiasts highligted the fact that the GTR will always be a Nissan and hence could never compare to the Porsche. Similarly, we have a much cheaper Caddy and the past generation no less that seems to offer a more visceral driving experience than the M5. Furthermore, BMW M5s have had the reputation of providing the most visceral driving experience. True, the M5 is faster around a track, but based on the review, the Caddy is more fun to drive. However, the Caddy is now dismissed on the basis that it is American, has a cheaper interior, and doesn't have the build quality of the M5. In the past, the M5's performance and dynamics alone would overcome all its deficiencies and pulverize the competition.

I have an E92 M3 myself and love BMWs, but I do recognize a great car when I see one. Based on the consistenly positive reviews of the Caddy's driving dynamics and handling, I accept that it is a great car. For a 3+ year old design to hang with the latest M5 further reinforces the Caddy's ability. I admit that the M5 does seem to be the better car overall, but its muted driving dynamics and inability to pulverize its competition with regard to its driving dynamics signals that perhaps BMW hasn't quite done enough to make the F10 special enough.
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      06-24-2012, 12:02 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.

Wow, that was the best post I've ever read on this forum by far!!!! You’re definitely not a snob, and you obviously support the country where you live, make a decent living, and support your precious family. You obviously despise the Black Caddy and that's perfectly ok in my opinion. Just to confirm you’re not a snoot, specifically what type of person where you referring to when you mentioned the “90’s rapper”?
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      06-24-2012, 12:09 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by muskamatt View Post
The defenses of a snobby, arrogant, blinded group of individuals. I think I might delete my app. I like my BMW but to hear criticism like this is pathetic.
Agree
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      06-24-2012, 01:47 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepTight
Quote:
Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.
Completely ignorant and uniformed commenting by somebody who hasn't driven either car.

Until the day the F10 M5 is actually being delivered in the U.S. (and it still isn't by the way), with the exception of the Porsche Panamera Turbo S, the CTS-V is the fastest production sedan you can buy in this Country and has been since 2009. It's faster in a straight line than an E60 M5 or an E63 AMG, and it's faster than an E60 M5 or E63 through the curves too. It also stops better and takes a better line through corners. And if you don't believe me, come on up to Monticello Motor Club and watch the CTS-V's eat that track alive. Then watch us swap tires and drive home on New York State 17 in total comfort courtesy of the V's Delphi Magneride suspension--the same suspension system as the Audi R8 and the Ferrari 599.

You'll pardon me, but I've found that the best way to hide my ignorance on a topic is not to comment on things I know nothing about.

I'm now on the M5 bandwagon because I'm willing to pay for the extra 5% that the M5 delivers over the CTS-V, but the $35,000 price difference between a fully optioned M5 and a fully optioned CTS-V is about as vivid a real-world illustration of the law of diminishing returns as there is in the automotive world.
I never said the CTS-V can't compete. I said I don't like the CTS-V because it's an American car. A forum implies that I can share my opinion. To me, American cars are a waste of time. I've been privileged enough to position myself in a way that allows me to avoid buying an American car. But ironically, my hate for American products has been magnified by the fact that my X3 was built in America and it's a piece of shit. I've had two. They've been shit. I had a 535 wagon before, and it wasn't a piece of shit. I've had other German-made cars and they've only been a pleasure to own.

But I digress, every time I see a Cadillac, I see a Chevy. And that's disappointing. If a Cadillac was built somewhere else and didn't share platforms with American cars, I'd probably appreciate the company a bit more, but it wouldn't change how ugly I feel they are. There's nothing tasteful to me about chrome mesh, blacked out rims, heavily flecked metallic paints, and straight lines in a world where curved lines are no longer that much more expensive to make. I don't "ooh" and "ahh" when I see a Cadillac of any caliber driving down the road. I roll my eyes. So if I were in a position to buy a high performance luxury sedan, I'd buy an M5 or an Audi S6, NOT because they're better on track (and they most certainly may not be), but because I trust how they're built and if I'm spending that much on a car, I want to feel like the cachet that comes with it was worth every penny.
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      06-24-2012, 06:48 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by monza2t View Post
actually for the price delta you could have a Hennessey V700, which BTW is 707 hp... if thats your thing... for me thats in the 'law of diminishing returns' territory where you start to add HP by the hundreds and only gain a couple tenths in 0-60.
Lol. I didn't think of that. I think a set of drag radials will do the trick
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      06-24-2012, 10:08 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajvee
I have 2 observations related to this topic and thread

1) The author's tone in the article does not align well with the conclusion that the M5 is the better car. He clearly sounds more excited about the Caddy, but based on a definition of a sports sedan that prioritizes luxury and comfort, he seems forced to pick the M5. This review coupled with the review that placed the M5 last when compared to the MB and Audi symbolizes a clear shift in expectations for the M5. It has gone from a ferrari killer with 4 doors (E28 M5) to the ultimate sports sedan (E39 M5) to the balls to the wall F1 tribute (E60 M5). While I am unsure as to what type of legacy the F10 will leave, I wouldn't be surprised if it is amongst the least remembered of the generations 10 years from now, purely because it seems to have detached the driver relative to the prior generations.

2) The posts in this thread parallel comparisons between the GTR and the 911 turbo when concerning the value propositions of the M5 versus the Caddy.

When confronted with the GTR which bested the turbo in performance, many porsche enthusiasts highligted the fact that the GTR will always be a Nissan and hence could never compare to the Porsche. Similarly, we have a much cheaper Caddy and the past generation no less that seems to offer a more visceral driving experience than the M5. Furthermore, BMW M5s have had the reputation of providing the most visceral driving experience. True, the M5 is faster around a track, but based on the review, the Caddy is more fun to drive. However, the Caddy is now dismissed on the basis that it is American, has a cheaper interior, and doesn't have the build quality of the M5. In the past, the M5's performance and dynamics alone would overcome all its deficiencies and pulverize the competition.

I have an E92 M3 myself and love BMWs, but I do recognize a great car when I see one. Based on the consistenly positive reviews of the Caddy's driving dynamics and handling, I accept that it is a great car. For a 3+ year old design to hang with the latest M5 further reinforces the Caddy's ability. I admit that the M5 does seem to be the better car overall, but its muted driving dynamics and inability to pulverize its competition with regard to its driving dynamics signals that perhaps BMW hasn't quite done enough to make the F10 special enough.
Agree 110%
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      06-24-2012, 10:17 AM   #61
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Essentially, vehicles come down to purely status symbols and comfort. Otherwise everyone would buy a Subaru STi and drop $15k in it and do AWD burnouts thru all 6 gears. If the BMW is just as fast but more comfortable, it's the winner and people will pay a "daily beater's" worth of money more for it to perform both tasks.
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      06-24-2012, 10:39 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBI_agent
I am wondering why no one said ''For M5 price, i can buy a CTS-V and a daily beater for 25k-35k ''.
In my opinion, obviously the M5 is better but I wouldn't mind the CTS-V. My friend has it and its not bad. Cadillac has come a long way in refining the interior and the luxury features weren't bad either. Plus the ride was pretty comfortable as well.

PS, the CTS-V engine sounds so much better then the M5 but i guess you have to make sacrifices in owning the best
$35k daily beater! Must be nice. Perhaps a used e60 m5 or early e90 m3!
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      06-24-2012, 12:28 PM   #63
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This is embarrassing for BMW in my opinion. There was so much hype about this car and how it was the "best m5 ever" and i think top gear even said one of the best cars you can buy today or something to that effect. Now it is struggling to edge out a cts-v... This was supposed to be the king of this segment. Now the case can be made that it isn't better than the s6, e63amg or caddy (at least for the money)
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      06-24-2012, 12:54 PM   #64
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No surprise. However the narrow margin was a surprise. As one of the other members pointed out. If we were to compare Non-Manual transmissions I would bet we get a 20+ point margin.
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      06-24-2012, 03:06 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
I never said the CTS-V can't compete. I said I don't like the CTS-V because it's an American car. A forum implies that I can share my opinion. To me, American cars are a waste of time. I've been privileged enough to position myself in a way that allows me to avoid buying an American car. But ironically, my hate for American products has been magnified by the fact that my X3 was built in America and it's a piece of shit. I've had two. They've been shit. I had a 535 wagon before, and it wasn't a piece of shit. I've had other German-made cars and they've only been a pleasure to own.

But I digress, every time I see a Cadillac, I see a Chevy. And that's disappointing. If a Cadillac was built somewhere else and didn't share platforms with American cars, I'd probably appreciate the company a bit more, but it wouldn't change how ugly I feel they are. There's nothing tasteful to me about chrome mesh, blacked out rims, heavily flecked metallic paints, and straight lines in a world where curved lines are no longer that much more expensive to make. I don't "ooh" and "ahh" when I see a Cadillac of any caliber driving down the road. I roll my eyes. So if I were in a position to buy a high performance luxury sedan, I'd buy an M5 or an Audi S6, NOT because they're better on track (and they most certainly may not be), but because I trust how they're built and if I'm spending that much on a car, I want to feel like the cachet that comes with it was worth every penny.
Your reply was intended, I gather, to make sure all of us were clear about the completely ignorant part.
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      06-24-2012, 06:22 PM   #66
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