F1 2022: Brazilian GP - São Paulo (Nov 13)

[E86Z4MC]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

This. Max is in a different class and if Checo's not there close then he can't help him but he's realising he needs that 'Max factor' a bit more to score for a medal.

True on two fronts. 1) he doesn't steal points from Max (max hasn't had to drive against top tier teammates, yet) and also 2) Perez has done a TON to help max out.

[Artemis]

Verstappen-Hamilton, Verstappen-Perez, etc.

Throwback: tough rivalry and dive bombing:

Senna - Prost feud:

• Senna: "I think everyone knows Prost by now. He's always complaining either by [about] the car or the tires or the team or the mechanics or the fuel or the other drivers or the circuit. It's always somebody else to blame; it's never his fault." - "I refuse to walk away from the fight. It's my nature to go right to the end. That's what I'm going to do." - "He [Prost] is behaving like a coward."
• Prost: "To be very honest, I mean, I'm quite happy to leave [McLaren and team mate Senna for Ferrari], because I think it becomes absolutely impossible to work with Ayrton."

Martin Brundle on Senna and Verstappen's dive bombing:

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

https://twitter.com/erikvharen/status/1591890433075970048

True on two fronts. 1) he doesn't steal points from Max (max hasn't had to drive against top tier teammates, yet) and also 2) Perez has done a TON to help max out.

you have any idea what the text says that you're quoting?
It says the opposite of what you're stating....
(it says that Checo rigged the Monaco qualifying on purpose for his own behalf...)

[NYG]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

Lol @ Max's response to helping Sergio with something that could only help his team and teammate. Really showing his true colors imo

Ham fans are literally not allowed to even make a comment about this. I can put together a one hour collage of him doing this, especially to Bottas who was submissive and then quite a bit more with Nico.

[E86Z4MC]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

you have any idea what the text says that you're quoting?
It says the opposite of what you're stating....
(it says that Checo rigged the Monaco qualifying on purpose for his own behalf...)

https://youtu.be/nGn7olufw5c

Wrong copy /paste. Thanks for mentioning it!

[NYG]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

https://twitter.com/erikvharen/status/1591890433075970048

True on two fronts. 1) he doesn't steal points from Max (max hasn't had to drive against top tier teammates, yet) and also 2) Perez has done a TON to help max out.

Perez also has a job because of Red Bull.

Look, I admit, I would have liked to see Max help him but you're talking about an elite champion. These people, same as Lewis/Senna/Schumacher/Alonso, have a competitive mindset that most people do not have. Yes, I know there have been times where Schumacher did this for Rubens but plenty more when he was ruthless against his teammates, especially earlier on.

I want Max to help Checo, I think he deserves it but the fact of the matter is that Checo needs to help himself first.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by NYG

Perez also has a job because of Red Bull.

Look, I admit, I would have liked to see Max help him but you're talking about an elite champion. These people, same as Lewis/Senna/Schumacher/Alonso, have a competitive mindset that most people do not have. Yes, I know there have been times where Schumacher did this for Rubens but plenty more when he was ruthless against his teammates, especially earlier on.

I want Max to help Checo, I think he deserves it but the fact of the matter is that Checo needs to help himself first.

Do you know what IF he was fighting to get something or win something at that point I'd get it. But Max literally has NOTHING to prove at this point. He could have chosen to be helpful to a drive that has helped him win a championship, but no he decides to make some pointless vacuous point. The guy isn't a nice person plain and simple he is low in many peoples estimations now that has fallen even further.

Red Bull, their attitude and their drive will be causing problems to sponsors of that you can be certain.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Onesie

I’m sorry, I watched the race.

Please tell us why VER got a penalty.

Edit: I’ll make your life easier:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-ex...paulo-penalty/

The stewards determined that Verstappen attempted to pass Hamilton on the outside of Turn 1 by braking very late.

“He did not complete the pass in Turn 1 and his excess speed compromised his entry into Turn 2, at which point he made contact with Hamilton.“

What is your definition of “dive bomb”?

This logic is exactly why Max fans laugh at the notion of Abu Dhabi 2021.

Last year was literally almost an entire season of Lewis getting away with trashy racing that Alonso has already called him out for not being able to drive in any position except 1st.

Whether you love Max, hate Max or are indifferent to Max at the very least that was 100% a racing incident. Every driver that was asked about it agrees and even Sky sports was very open about it being LEWIS.

Lewis has a complex where he believes he can not be challenged by anyone and never leaves space. Max humbled him real quick, so he needs to learn how to drive the way someone 5th in the WDC drives.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Do you know what IF he was fighting to get something or win something at that point I'd get it. But Max literally has NOTHING to prove at this point. He could have chosen to be helpful to a drive that has helped him win a championship, but no he decides to make some pointless vacuous point. The guy isn't a nice person plain and simple he is low in many peoples estimations now that has fallen even further.

Red Bull, their attitude and their drive will be causing problems to sponsors of that you can be certain.

I think it's completely unfair to judge someone's character based on their race performances and decisions. That's why I respect the heck out of Lewis the driver - not the person.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by chaungo

“While the stewards recognize that Hamilton could possibly have given a little more room at the apex of Turn 2, the stewards determined that Verstappen was predominantly at fault.”

Got it, so they were bias.

If this ever happens again, just squeeze your competitor out and they get the penalty.

The stewards screwed up for sure.

Lewis didn't leave room and Max didn't back out.

This is what happens when two titans race against each other.

Max would have lost that race regardless of what happened but he did not deserve a penalty AT ALL.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by G99M5

No need to rage on about Hamilton.

He did that to protect Russell and that move gave Merc the win.

Sergio would have done that for Max. Not the other way round though.

Surely, you don't believe that right? Or did you miss all of Lewis' races in the past decade?

[br438]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Verstappen-Hamilton, Verstappen-Perez, etc.

Throwback: tough rivalry and dive bombing:

Senna - Prost feud:

• Senna: "I think everyone knows Prost by now. He's always complaining either by [about] the car or the tires or the team or the mechanics or the fuel or the other drivers or the circuit. It's always somebody else to blame; it's never his fault." - "I refuse to walk away from the fight. It's my nature to go right to the end. That's what I'm going to do." - "He [Prost] is behaving like a coward."
• Prost: "To be very honest, I mean, I'm quite happy to leave [McLaren and team mate Senna for Ferrari], because I think it becomes absolutely impossible to work with Ayrton."

Martin Brundle on Senna and Verstappen's dive bombing:

All of the greats dive bombed. In short, domination (with a near-equal car) is all about creating risk and distributing that risk to other competitors ... essentially playing chicken for overtakes.

For safety, some of that is being "bred" out of the sport, but it is the heart of what was motor racing. With a large performance disparity, that game doesn't have to be played. Merc's performance domination (car differential) for so many years has ... sullied our memory of what F1 racing has always been.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Verstappen after crossing the chequered flag: "I told you already last time. You, guys, don't ask that [request to invert track position] again to me, OK ? Are we clear about that ? I gave my reasons and stand by it."

Sounds like 'no track position inversion' is a matter of principle for him that he has internally made clear in the past. No matter whether this could be controversial on a human level.

Compare: Bottas-Hamilton 'invert track position' situations:

Russian GP 2018 "So you need to let Lewis by into Turn 13 this lap."

Austrian GP 2021: "So, Lewis has damage. Do not race it for now. We will review.
OK Valtteri, we will invert the cars into Turn 1, correction Turn 3."

Silverstone GP 2021: "And team order: do not fight with Lewis.
OK Valtteri, we invert the cars into Turn 15 in this lap."

Zandvoort GP 2021: "Valteri, it's James. Please abort the fastest lap attempt before the end of the lap."

A reminder for anyone that missed this post - thank you Artemis for doing the work.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by chaungo

Everyone bitching about max, but look at Leclerc begging for 3rd place (which would be 3 points btw) vs Perez begging for 6th (which would be 2 pts)

Agreed, I think Ferrari not even entertaining this is so much worse. At least Red Bull has acknowledged that Checo matters to them. Ferrari is actually destroying one of the only drivers on the grid that is capable of fighting Max in the future.

Perez wouldn't need to beg if he just drove better this weekend and the weekends before.

He's a #2 driver, he would never win a championship, or beat Max, he had the chance in the beginning of the season, and he just didn't perform.

This is the hard fact of life that people do not want to accept. I LOVE Checo and I want him to succeed but chaungo is spot on. Checo knows as well as Sainz, Ricciardo, Gasly, and Albon do - they will not beat him.

[MMM.PWR]

I'm mostly a Ferrari fan, but as a Honda fan I also supported RB during the Merc domination years. However, after the way Max behaved on Sunday in Brazil, I have to say he lost my respect going forward.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by NYG

Perez also has a job because of Red Bull.

Look, I admit, I would have liked to see Max help him but you're talking about an elite champion. These people, same as Lewis/Senna/Schumacher/Alonso, have a competitive mindset that most people do not have. Yes, I know there have been times where Schumacher did this for Rubens but plenty more when he was ruthless against his teammates, especially earlier on.

I want Max to help Checo, I think he deserves it but the fact of the matter is that Checo needs to help himself first.

There should be no handouts in F1 for the most part - every driver has to carry their own weight but there still is a team aspect that you still need to adhere to.

If points still mattered, then PER would not be in the right to ask for a free position and doubt it would even be requested. The issue with what happened is that Red Bull has nothing left to gain other than a 1-2 finish in drivers, which would be a first for them and Red Bull recognizes this which is why Horner apologized to PER.

All PER was asking for was a crumb and he couldn't even get that. If you want to make the argument that drivers need to win races largely on their own merit, then PER should not have done what he did in Abu Dhabi last year, which at that moment in the race was huge - VER was in danger of being completely blown out.

Everyone is bringing up HAM/BOT and Mercedes team orders. The difference is points were still in play and if Mercedes wanted to favour HAM, that's on them. With Red Bull, there is nothing left to gain. This should have been an easy team order to follow.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

There should be no handouts in F1 for the most part - every driver has to carry their own weight but there still is a team aspect that you still need to adhere to.

If points still mattered, then PER would not be in the right to ask for a free position and doubt it would even be requested. The issue with what happened is that Red Bull has nothing left to gain other than a 1-2 finish in drivers, which would be a first for them and Red Bull recognizes this which is why Horner apologized to PER.

All PER was asking for was a crumb and he couldn't even get that. If you want to make the argument that drivers need to win races largely on their own merit, then PER should not have done what he did in Abu Dhabi last year, which at that moment in the race was huge - VER was in danger of being completely blown out.

Max is carving himself into potentially unbreakable F1 history right now. In the event of this race, it would be most points in a season. Does it really matter? To highly driven competitors, yes.

I stand by the fact that I would have liked to see him help Checo. I also understand the mindset he's in. I don't think his decision in that moment reflects his character.

I'm clearly biased in this situation and I'll be the first to admit it but I think I'm being consistent in my opinion as it relates to similar circumstances for other drivers, even Hamilton.

Everyone is bringing up HAM/BOT and Mercedes team orders. The difference is points were still in play and if Mercedes wanted to favour HAM, that's on them. With Red Bull, there is nothing left to gain. This should have been an easy team order to follow.

Stop it.... you know how silly this statement is. Lewis tried to screw Nico in Abu Dhabi right before he won.

[lens]

To the people who said they lost respect for Max going forward.

Redbull gave Checo a job when he was seatless after 2020.

Max also doesn't give a shit about anyone's respect, it's the reason why he refused to be on drive to survive because they kept painting him a villain.

He's just going to keep performing, and keep winning races whether you respect him or not, he's a driver, he went for a small gap and HAM closed the gap on him, it's been proven since last season, when HAM finally had someone to challenge him, it always ends up bad, he's never had a healthy challenger for the title, look at Rosberg era.

And it does matter for VER, he's setting record amount of points or wins in a season. If you're second driver is too slow to earn his own points, that's on him, LEC had a ton of DNF and low finishes second half of season, and PER didn't capitalize and now he's begging for points.

Maybe if he didn't punt his car into the wall in Canada, he would've been fine.


This is formula 1, there's no charity handouts here, it's either you're good enough to be a #1 driver, or you're good enough to be #2 driver helping the #1 driver.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by NYG

Max is carving himself into potentially unbreakable F1 history right now. In the event of this race, it would be most points in a season. Does it really matter? To highly driven competitors, yes.

I stand by the fact that I would have liked to see him help Checo. I also understand the mindset he's in. I don't think his decision in that moment reflects his character.

I'm clearly biased in this situation and I'll be the first to admit it but I think I'm being consistent in my opinion as it relates to similar circumstances for other drivers, even Hamilton.

Stop it.... you know how silly this statement is. Lewis tried to screw Nico in Abu Dhabi right before he won.

I think VER already holds the record for most points in a season so at this point, so he's just looking to pad his own stats if that really is his mindset (I don't know and not really relevant). Everyone can make their own conclusions from that.

Ultimately, at what point do you become a team player? You're of the opinion that there is always something to race for, which could be true, so where does any team draw the line and say, you have to do this for the team, no argument?

I don't think anyone would be this critical of VER if points actually mattered to him, whether it's for the championship, records, etc. His positioning really didn't matter to him and he pretty much hinted as such in post-race interviews. He did it just because, out of spite, or whatever you want to call it.

I'm with you about handouts. Ferrari handled it correctly, although not the same circumstances. There was absolutely no chance Ferrari was going to take away a podium from SAI with the type of race he drove.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

I think VER already holds the record for most points in a season so at this point, so he's just looking to pad his own stats if that really is his mindset (I don't know and not really relevant). Everyone can make their own conclusions from that.

Ultimately, at what point do you become a team player? You're of the opinion that there is always something to race for, which could be true, so where does any team draw the line and say, you have to do this for the team, no argument?

I don't think anyone would be this critical of VER if points actually mattered to him, whether it's for the championship, records, etc. His positioning really didn't matter to him and he pretty much hinted as such in post-race interviews. He did it just because, out of spite, or whatever you want to call it.

I'm with you about handouts. Ferrari handled it correctly, although not the same circumstances. There was absolutely no chance Ferrari was going to take away a podium from SAI with the type of race he drove.

I don't think any of these guys drive to be a team player. I think some of them end up playing the team game because of the circumstances that they are in, whether it's lack of skill or lack of car. It seems like Horner and Marko drew the line based on Max's interview post-race where he very explicitly said that he would be there to support Checo any way he can.

I don't think he did it out of spite or just because but both of us can only speculate on this.

Either way, appreciate the fact that you and I can have a conversation about this without being cunts. Difference of opinions is a good thing.

[NYG]

Killed by Death

Did you catch Charles flipping off Lando?

[lens]

Originally Posted by NYG

I don't think any of these guys drive to be a team player. I think some of them end up playing the team game because of the circumstances that they are in, whether it's lack of skill or lack of car. It seems like Horner and Marko drew the line based on Max's interview post-race where he very explicitly said that he would be there to support Checo any way he can.

I don't think he did it out of spite or just because but both of us can only speculate on this.

Either way, appreciate the fact that you and I can have a conversation about this without being cunts. Difference of opinions is a good thing.

Exactly, noone drives to be the #1 drivers sacrificial lamb.

Everyone genuinely thinks they got a shot at being WDC, and once you perform subpar or no longer looks like you can keep up, you become a #2 driver that helps the #1 driver win.

Either way, I believe this situation is done and dusted, Max got even with Perez at his own expense of fans and respect, he stood by what he believed in, knowing that he will incur the wrath of the fanbase and drivers, and losing fans and respect. And to me, that's something I can get behind.

We'll see a different red bull in Abu Dhabi, and definitely a different team next year. Papa Perez is probably going to try to remedy the situation.