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      12-31-2020, 12:13 PM   #1
brad850csi
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Hybrid technology

I’ll go out and say I really don’t care about the newest solid state battery tech for my primary car but instead I’m thinking could a 5-10kwh battery be located somewhere in every BMW using this new tech that doesn’t take up much space or add too much weight giving better performance and economy?
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      12-31-2020, 03:26 PM   #2
antzcrashing
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Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I’ll go out and say I really don’t care about the newest solid state battery tech for my primary car but instead I’m thinking could a 5-10kwh battery be located somewhere in every BMW using this new tech that doesn’t take up much space or add too much weight giving better performance and economy?
Yes but now your vehicle has effectively 2 engines, each with their own maintenance and failure modes. Its more expensive to produce and maintain.
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      01-01-2021, 07:54 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I’ll go out and say I really don’t care about the newest solid state battery tech for my primary car but instead I’m thinking could a 5-10kwh battery be located somewhere in every BMW using this new tech that doesn’t take up much space or add too much weight giving better performance and economy?
What a novel idea! Maybe they should call that a hybrid?
In all seriousness BMW has plans to hybridize pretty much their entire lineup sometime in the next decade, not to mention 9 electric vehicles by 2025.

Btw current plug in hybrid 330e has 12-kW-hr battery, it is about 440 pounds heavier than the 330i. BMW says the battery weights around 330 pounds, and other hybrid components adds an additional 110 pounds.

If they can get 50% improvement in battery weight/performance the hybrid weight penalty will be less than 300lbs vs 440lbs currently. Or they can put twice as powerful battery for same weight -they can stuff a smaller 3 cylinder petrol engine, maybe even remove transmission too for weight savings.
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      01-01-2021, 09:05 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
Yes but now your vehicle has effectively 2 engines, each with their own maintenance and failure modes. Its more expensive to produce and maintain.
You know they are already doing this with their 48V systems?
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      01-01-2021, 01:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by XsltAnalyst View Post
What a novel idea! Maybe they should call that a hybrid?
In all seriousness BMW has plans to hybridize pretty much their entire lineup sometime in the next decade, not to mention 9 electric vehicles by 2025.

Btw current plug in hybrid 330e has 12-kW-hr battery, it is about 440 pounds heavier than the 330i. BMW says the battery weights around 330 pounds, and other hybrid components adds an additional 110 pounds.

If they can get 50% improvement in battery weight/performance the hybrid weight penalty will be less than 300lbs vs 440lbs currently. Or they can put twice as powerful battery for same weight -they can stuff a smaller 3 cylinder petrol engine, maybe even remove transmission too for weight savings.
Haha, I should have expanded on that a little bit - I like the 45e cars but why do they put in such a low tuned version of the engine, a B58 at full power plus the existing electric motor would be great.

On the note of a 3 cylinder, the B38 isn't much lighter than the B48, might as well go with the B48 - which is what the i8 always needed in my mind.
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      01-01-2021, 01:45 PM   #6
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You know they are already doing this with their 48V systems?
I know, but my point is that you aren't going to be able to have your cake and eat it too. EV motors add weight and cost (price). Even as they get lighter and cheaper over time. And then even when they are price competitive, you still have 2 motors (combustion and electric) to maintain.

I like the idea of full electric vehicles, but there is range anxiety, its real!

I like the idea of hybrid, bc it has a combustion motor as backup, but it comes with downsides.

I will likely get an electric powered vehicle one day, but that doesn't mean there aren't downsides.
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      01-01-2021, 02:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
I know, but my point is that you aren't going to be able to have your cake and eat it too. EV motors add weight and cost (price). Even as they get lighter and cheaper over time. And then even when they are price competitive, you still have 2 motors (combustion and electric) to maintain.

I like the idea of full electric vehicles, but there is range anxiety, its real!

I like the idea of hybrid, bc it has a combustion motor as backup, but it comes with downsides.

I will likely get an electric powered vehicle one day, but that doesn't mean there aren't downsides.
Oh, absolutely agree. Why drive around with two complete power trains? Stay gas or go full electric. Although, not going to lie, the new 330e X-Drive is really tempting me. Enough range for Monday-Friday. Gas motor would only get used leaving the city.

Once solid state batteries become the norm, and a charge can be done in 5-10 mins, the gas powered cars days are numbered. My next daily will be full electric for sure.
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      01-02-2021, 12:02 PM   #8
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I think the 48v system makes some sense. Brakes are wasting energy (would expect a 48v system adds to brake life), stop/start isn't as smooth as it could be, isn't an extreme amount of weight and electric motors are pretty simple to make dependable.

Any new technology or system has negatives, just depends on which is worse. My father says his mid 60's cars are great because they are so simple but then they have a hard time starting when it is cold, they aren't fuel efficient and the smell of burning gas can be too much. When variable valve timing came out people wondered if the cost/complexity was worth the benefit, same with turbo's when they went mainstream.
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      01-12-2021, 05:47 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Oh, absolutely agree. Why drive around with two complete power trains? Stay gas or go full electric. Although, not going to lie, the new 330e X-Drive is really tempting me. Enough range for Monday-Friday. Gas motor would only get used leaving the city.

Once solid state batteries become the norm, and a charge can be done in 5-10 mins, the gas powered cars days are numbered. My next daily will be full electric for sure.
I think the ideal drivetrain is a hybrid, but one where an internal combustion engine at it peak efficiency speed and powers an electrical generator. The vehicle has some level of battery storage for electrical energy and a some level of capacitance electrical energy for max electrical discharge to the electric drive system peak demands. That architecture gains the benefit of both the massive energy storage locked in carbon fuels and the efficiency of an electric motor drive system. It solves the ridiculous long recharge time of the EV and greatly increases the energy conversion from carbon fuels. Carbon fuel energy density far out matches batteries.

By dividing the work of motion between these three systems, each system can be designed to their lightest form for overall vehicle weight reduction. The GM Voltec drivetrain was on the path of developing such a vehicle, but regulations against carbon fuel burning make it not worth the investment. Unfortunately the world is regulated to develop the BEV and that's it. It's settled science.
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      01-12-2021, 06:30 AM   #10
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I think the ideal drivetrain is a hybrid, but one where an internal combustion engine at it peak efficiency speed and powers an electrical generator.
Isn't that just a range extender in simple terms? It powers solely the battery and none of the drivetrain.

https://www.motor1.com/news/266766/m...tender-patent/

Mazda is fiddling with a rotary engine for powering their batteries in the latest model CX-30. By nature the rotary is good for low torque and constant demand applications. The whole system needs fine tuning, sure. Most people know of the flaws of the rotary engine but in this application it could be promising.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...confirmed-usa/
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      01-12-2021, 09:03 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by freakystyly View Post
Isn't that just a range extender in simple terms? It powers solely the battery and none of the drivetrain.

https://www.motor1.com/news/266766/m...tender-patent/

Mazda is fiddling with a rotary engine for powering their batteries in the latest model CX-30. By nature the rotary is good for low torque and constant demand applications. The whole system needs fine tuning, sure. Most people know of the flaws of the rotary engine but in this application it could be promising.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...confirmed-usa/
The Volt Gen 1 used a planetary gearset that transmitted engine power directly to the drivewheels in only one narrow circumstance, which was basically mountain climbs. Gen 2 Volt used a redesigned planetary transmission that expanded the engine assist at highway speeds above 65 MPH (it might be 70), because GM found the drivetrain was more fuel efficient in that mode at high speeds. Being the engine has to assist in direct drive wheel power, the crank and internals need strength to support that function.

A true engine-eletric drive system (like used in modern locomotives) allows for optimizing the separate components to do just their job. That allows engineers to optimize the (light) weight of components in an automotive version. The problem with automobiles, which is different than trains, is the constant change in acceleration. That can be over come by storage batteries and large capacitors to deal with peak acceleration demands. Locomotives do not change speed as rapidly as automobiles do, so the power generator is large and heavy to meet the demands of full pulling power locomotive needs.

The drivetrain scaled and repurposed to automotive use can drastically reduce the size and weight of the engine since it's only work is to generate electricity. The problem is since ICE can be banned by a stroke of a pen, it is sadly hard to justify development of the technology. My opinion of course.

A rotary engine could be ideal for this type of application.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 01-12-2021 at 09:01 PM..
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