Goodbye M5, Hello Porsche Turbo S.

[w5pwr]

Car looks great....

I got my 997 T from Cambridge and they looked after it for nearly 4 years including two quite major warranty jobs....

Great weather for enjoying 4 wheel drive!

[M5essex]

Originally Posted by w5pwr

Car looks great....

I got my 997 T from Cambridge and they looked after it for nearly 4 years including two quite major warranty jobs....

Great weather for enjoying 4 wheel drive!

cheers mate.

did you trade your 997 T in for your M5?

what type of warranty work did they have to do, if you don't mind me asking?

[w5pwr]

Originally Posted by M5essex

cheers mate.

did you trade your 997 T in for your M5?

what type of warranty work did they have to do, if you don't mind me asking?

I traded the 997 T for a Maserati GT S then from that to the M5...

The warranty work they carried out was to replace both of the Turbo's (precautionary work) and also there was a slight oil leak on the engine block which required replacing a seal, but to do it was a major strip down job....

They showed me the warranty invoices for the work and it came to something like £15k, both were carried out in the first 12-18 months and I kept the car a further 2.5 years without any issues.

[M5essex]

Originally Posted by w5pwr

I traded the 997 T for a Maserati GT S then from that to the M5...

The warranty work they carried out was to replace both of the Turbo's (precautionary work) and also there was a slight oil leak on the engine block which required replacing a seal, but to do it was a major strip down job....

They showed me the warranty invoices for the work and it came to something like £15k, both were carried out in the first 12-18 months and I kept the car a further 2.5 years without any issues.

wow, interesting swaps...

I cant help but feel in certain gears, the M5 I had was quicker than the Porsche. the torque in the M5 just felt like it got to high speed quicker that the Porsche does with less effort...

of course the Porsche is quicker off the line, but mid range from 50mph upwards I think its a close call.

maybe I need to let it loosen up and run in before doing a true comparison.

the Porsche is an event to drive and gives me more of a grin. so i'm very happy with it

[w5pwr]

Originally Posted by M5essex

wow, interesting swaps...

I cant help but feel in certain gears, the M5 I had was quicker than the Porsche. the torque in the M5 just felt like it got to high speed quicker that the Porsche does with less effort...

of course the Porsche is quicker off the line, but mid range from 50mph upwards I think its a close call.

maybe I need to let it loosen up and run in before doing a true comparison.

the Porsche is an event to drive and gives me more of a grin. so i'm very happy with it

The changes were driven by growing children, there comes point where nobody wants to go in the back!

Hopefully not for much longer and I can go back to a two door car 991 T or MC Stradale are top of the list.

But in truth, IMHO, the M5 ticks more boxes than any of the cars mentioned, all great cars but with more compromises.....

[RPiM5]

M5essex, congrats on the new P-car! An excellent choice. They say the Turbo S is the Budget Bugatti Veyron you know.

I am curious about your claims about the Porsche PDK, especially since you have experience with the BMW M DCT too. I've driven PDK equipped P-Cars before too, such as the Cayman S, and 911, but not GT3 or Turbo S. Although I found the PDK's fast, crisp, and responsive, I could not find them any better than the BMW M DCT's when in the S3 shift program. To me the S3 shift program in both the M5/M6 and M3/M4 are equally as fast, crisp, and responsive as the PDK. So I just don't get it when someone talks about the PDK being of superior intelligence, maybe I'm just missing something? The same goes with the Ferrari 458 DCT and the Nissan GTR DCT, I never felt like those transmissions were light years better than the BMW M DCT. Maybe it's just Placebo effect from driving a new Porsche.

Anyways, back to w5pwer's comment about compromises. I agree that each car has its compromises. One thing that really bugs me about Porsches' is the lack of tech and integration. This is where BMW shines in my opinion. The complaint about the lack of buttons on the steering wheel is an example. I know that there is an option for steering wheel functional buttons but it's still nothing compared to BMW's. For me personally I could never imagine throwing 3 of my kids in a Porsche for long or maybe even short rides. I have always felt the back seats in any generation 911 were a joke and looked uncomfortable. Even the back seat of an M6 isn't that tolerable. The biggest compromise to BMW's is that they are not the most highest performing cars on the planet. Their compromise is the rest of the stuff that a true sports car can't have. The biggest compromise with any BMW M car is that it simply isn't designed for the absolute best lap time on a racetrack. I even think that a base 991 Carrera (not the S) is a better sports car than an M4, but the M4 has a bigger trunk and much more comfortable back seats, not to mention the tech.

Anyways, this ends my rambling. Lol! I just couldn't see myself getting into a Porsche unless it was a Cayman GTS, 991 GT3, or maybe even 991 GTS. I have never liked the way that the Turbos looked personally, and not just the 991 generation either, but man they have always been some of the fastest cars on the planet. At least they are great for destroying GTR's. Lol!

[M5essex]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

M5essex, congrats on the new P-car! An excellent choice. They say the Turbo S is the Budget Bugatti Veyron you know.

I am curious about your claims about the Porsche PDK, especially since you have experience with the BMW M DCT too. I've driven PDK equipped P-Cars before too, such as the Cayman S, and 911, but not GT3 or Turbo S. Although I found the PDK's fast, crisp, and responsive, I could not find them any better than the BMW M DCT's when in the S3 shift program. To me the S3 shift program in both the M5/M6 and M3/M4 are equally as fast, crisp, and responsive as the PDK. So I just don't get it when someone talks about the PDK being of superior intelligence, maybe I'm just missing something? The same goes with the Ferrari 458 DCT and the Nissan GTR DCT, I never felt like those transmissions were light years better than the BMW M DCT. Maybe it's just Placebo effect from driving a new Porsche.

Anyways, back to w5pwer's comment about compromises. I agree that each car has its compromises. One thing that really bugs me about Porsches' is the lack of tech and integration. This is where BMW shines in my opinion. The complaint about the lack of buttons on the steering wheel is an example. I know that there is an option for steering wheel functional buttons but it's still nothing compared to BMW's. For me personally I could never imagine throwing 3 of my kids in a Porsche for long or maybe even short rides. I have always felt the back seats in any generation 911 were a joke and looked uncomfortable. Even the back seat of an M6 isn't that tolerable. The biggest compromise to BMW's is that they are not the most highest performing cars on the planet. Their compromise is the rest of the stuff that a true sports car can't have. The biggest compromise with any BMW M car is that it simply isn't designed for the absolute best lap time on a racetrack. I even think that a base 991 Carrera (not the S) is a better sports car than an M4, but the M4 has a bigger trunk and much more comfortable back seats, not to mention the tech.

Anyways, this ends my rambling. Lol! I just couldn't see myself getting into a Porsche unless it was a Cayman GTS, 991 GT3, or maybe even 991 GTS. I have never liked the way that the Turbos looked personally, and not just the 991 generation either, but man they have always been some of the fastest cars on the planet. At least they are great for destroying GTR's. Lol!

thanks Dave,

I certainly am not intending to slate the DCT, because up until I had the Porsche, I firmly believed the M DCT was without question as good as it gets as far as dual clutch systems go... i'm sure it still is, but when I was in all sport+ settings in the P car, it seems to slip into gear with the paddles so smoothly and instantly without any banging or jolting, like I found with the DCT box. I found the M5 would hit the gear in too ferociously and if I was going round a corner or at speed at the time, it unsettled the car, especially the rear. no such feeling in the Porsche. so smooth in fact, you question whether it has even changed, other than seeing/hearing the revs dropping.

also, in auto and when in either sp or sp+, in the P car, when approaching a roundabout or slowing down for a junction, it found a lower more appropriate gear far quicker that the DCT and in fact way ahead of me thinking I need to change down a gear. It read my mind basically

when neither sp or sp+ are engaged and your are in effect in an 'eco mode' (in the Porsche)_ when you coast on a dual carriage way/motorway/freeway or any road for that matter, and take you foot off the accelerator, the revs drop to less than 800-1000rpm, for fuel efficiency reason i'm sure, and then the slightest touch of the throttle sees the revs immediately go back to where they were/should be for that speed and gear.

also when in 'eco mode' and the stop/start fiction is active, there is literally no delay when taking off after a standstill, whereas I found the M DCT did have a short annoying delay, enough for me to deactivate Stop/start every time I got in it.

I find absolutely no delay in taking off from a junction either, where as I found that few time in the M5 that I had to push the accelerator down even harder only to wheelspin out of a junction.

I agree with you about the usability of the Porsche vs the M5 and of course the M5 is more practical in every way, as is an M4 and even and M6. but I just never felt that connected to the M5 or that enamoured with the looks. whereas I did with the e92 M3. plus is found myself on my own in the car probably 90% of the time, going back and forth to work. I pick my three kids up at the weekends and they fit in the Porsche nicely. for now! we have a 7 seater X5 for when me, the wife, our new baby AND the 3 other kids need to go out together. so the family car and practical car is covered.

I am 6'2" and my ten year old son, who is a big lump for his age, fits comfortably behind me and I can still breathe behind the steering wheel just make sure you don't have comfort access or whenever its called turned on as the seat goes all the way back when you turn the ignition off to give you the most room to get out of the driver seat!

I guess I just wanted to have a car for me(selfishly) but still the occasional necessary use of back seats for my small kids.

I do miss my M5, there's no doubt about it. and if I had the money, id like to have both of these cars in my garage..

BMW comfort/luxury and gadgets are way better that the P car, but I didn't buy the Porsche for those reasons.

[clar]

When it comes to DCT, u look at its shift speed, smoothness, and auto mode software logic. On those counts, I can't really feel any diff between the Speciale and E92 M3 DCT in shift speed. We are talking diminishing return here really. Speciale auto mode is hopeless. Not as comfortable. I am curious abt porsche's auto mode. Their crept on lifting off brakes is very nice to have though.

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

M5essex, congrats on the new P-car! An excellent choice. They say the Turbo S is the Budget Bugatti Veyron you know.

I am curious about your claims about the Porsche PDK, especially since you have experience with the BMW M DCT too. I've driven PDK equipped P-Cars before too, such as the Cayman S, and 911, but not GT3 or Turbo S. Although I found the PDK's fast, crisp, and responsive, I could not find them any better than the BMW M DCT's when in the S3 shift program. To me the S3 shift program in both the M5/M6 and M3/M4 are equally as fast, crisp, and responsive as the PDK. So I just don't get it when someone talks about the PDK being of superior intelligence, maybe I'm just missing something? The same goes with the Ferrari 458 DCT and the Nissan GTR DCT, I never felt like those transmissions were light years better than the BMW M DCT. Maybe it's just Placebo effect from driving a new Porsche.

Anyways, back to w5pwer's comment about compromises. I agree that each car has its compromises. One thing that really bugs me about Porsches' is the lack of tech and integration. This is where BMW shines in my opinion. The complaint about the lack of buttons on the steering wheel is an example. I know that there is an option for steering wheel functional buttons but it's still nothing compared to BMW's. For me personally I could never imagine throwing 3 of my kids in a Porsche for long or maybe even short rides. I have always felt the back seats in any generation 911 were a joke and looked uncomfortable. Even the back seat of an M6 isn't that tolerable. The biggest compromise to BMW's is that they are not the most highest performing cars on the planet. Their compromise is the rest of the stuff that a true sports car can't have. The biggest compromise with any BMW M car is that it simply isn't designed for the absolute best lap time on a racetrack. I even think that a base 991 Carrera (not the S) is a better sports car than an M4, but the M4 has a bigger trunk and much more comfortable back seats, not to mention the tech.

Anyways, this ends my rambling. Lol! I just couldn't see myself getting into a Porsche unless it was a Cayman GTS, 991 GT3, or maybe even 991 GTS. I have never liked the way that the Turbos looked personally, and not just the 991 generation either, but man they have always been some of the fastest cars on the planet. At least they are great for destroying GTR's. Lol!

If you go to the Pcar I would try to land a GT3 over the GTS because the price point is to close to the GT3 minus all the kick asserformance. The PDK-S is hands down better than the DCT. When I drive my M5 the shifts are far more slower. Drive the GT3 if you can.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

If you go to the Pcar I would try to land a GT3 over the GTS because the price point is to close to the GT3 minus all the kick asserformance. The PDK-S is hands down better than the DCT. When I drive my M5 the shifts are far more slower. Drive the GT3 if you can.

Yes indeed, you have the PDK in the 991 GT3 which was reworked extensively just for the GT3 from what I've read. I can imagine it shifting much faster than a base Boxster PDK. Different story I suppose.

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Yes indeed, you have the PDK in the 991 GT3 which was reworked extensively just for the GT3 from what I've read. I can imagine it shifting much faster than a base Boxster PDK. Different story I suppose.

If I had the choice of a stick after driving the PDK-S. I'd pass on the stick for sure. You can pull the paddles back, and it dumps the car into neutral if you want to rev the engine, and no I don't do burn outs Release and you back in gear. LC push brake,, and floor it foot off brake you go. No shifting or science project to make it work.

[WCH]

Yes. You need to manually select 7th gear in Sport or Sport Plus. It might also be that you have to go a lot faster for it to select that gear automatically. However, you can use the paddles even if you are not in full manual mode.

I'd like to know about the spoiler as well. Haven't been able to determine whether it is deploying partially at 74 mph (so I can't see it) since I think the full deployment involves a much higher rear spoiler height and angle.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by M5essex

thanks Dave,

...but when I was in all sport+ settings in the P car, it seems to slip into gear with the paddles so smoothly and instantly without any banging or jolting, like I found with the DCT box. I found the M5 would hit the gear in too ferociously and if I was going round a corner or at speed at the time, it unsettled the car, especially the rear. no such feeling in the Porsche. so smooth in fact, you question whether it has even changed, other than seeing/hearing the revs dropping.

also, in auto and when in either sp or sp+, in the P car, when approaching a roundabout or slowing down for a junction, it found a lower more appropriate gear far quicker that the DCT and in fact way ahead of me thinking I need to change down a gear. It read my mind basically

when neither sp or sp+ are engaged and your are in effect in an 'eco mode' (in the Porsche)_ when you coast on a dual carriage way/motorway/freeway or any road for that matter, and take you foot off the accelerator, the revs drop to less than 800-1000rpm, for fuel efficiency reason i'm sure, and then the slightest touch of the throttle sees the revs immediately go back to where they were/should be for that speed and gear.

also when in 'eco mode' and the stop/start fiction is active, there is literally no delay when taking off after a standstill, whereas I found the M DCT did have a short annoying delay, enough for me to deactivate Stop/start every time I got in it.

I find absolutely no delay in taking off from a junction either, where as I found that few time in the M5 that I had to push the accelerator down even harder only to wheelspin out of a junction.

Excellent discussion brother. Thank you for your detailed response about the PDK in the Turbo S. I understand it better now.

My personal opinion on the matter of the M5's DCT having lag when leaving a junction, and I know this might sound crazy to some people and absurd, is that it has more to do with turbo lag than clutch engagement from the transmission. Why do I say this? Because of Catless Downpipes. I think I need to literally make a video, but in my car with full straightpiped exhaust and catless downpipes, there is literally zero and I mean zero turbo lag. When leaving a junction, even on Efficient mode with the throttle setting button, I feel like the car just want to take off from a dead stop. On Sport setting, the takeoff is a little too much, and on Sport+ it's borderline ludicrous how faster the car moves off the line. Like I said, I think I should make a video to prove it. There is just no delay when I being to press on the throttle pedal to when the car begins to move off the line. I find D1 and D2, S1 and S2 laggy for the BMW M DCT, just as you described. I don't know if you drove in D3 often, but I feel like it works just as you described the PDK in sport or sport+, where the transmission reads your mind. I should maybe make another video also, showing how when I'm driving in D3 mode the DCT downshifts at almost the perfect times when I'm slowing down or about to enter a corner. The auto mode most likely has much better software logic on the PDK than on the BMW M DCT though. Upshifting or downshifting for me in my M5 would never unsettle the rear. I will guess that the stock suspension and sway bars (non Comp Pack) are probably too soft for the DCT. This is why I upgraded my suspension and swaybars. The M5 is just planted with the upgrades and the DCT works beautifully with them.

One thing I will definitely agree on with you is the smoothness of shifting between the M DCT and the PDK. In S3 Mode the Shifting can definitely be rough or abrupt when you are at full throttle and/or driving aggressively, not on the Porsche though, it is very smooth all the time like you say. I prefer the roughness of the shift when driving aggressively though as for me it creates a more visceral experience. I love that feeling of the gears banging into the next. I am also an old E60 M5 owner, and the violent drama from upshifts of the SMG are something I enjoyed and miss. I still have some missing tooth fillings from that E60 M5 SMG.

By the way I have heard the 991 Turbo S with an upgraded exhaust before and it sounds nasty, in a very good way I mean. I would definitely look into an aftermarket exhaust to increase the aural driving experience if you would like that. I rode in a Turbo S once before with the stock exhaust and I found it very comfortable from an interior sound perspective, but not as visceral as even a 991 C2S.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by clar

When it comes to DCT, u look at its shift speed, smoothness, and auto mode software logic. On those counts, I can't really feel any diff between the Speciale and E92 M3 DCT in shift speed. We are talking diminishing return here really. Speciale auto mode is hopeless. Not as comfortable. I am curious abt porsche's auto mode. Their crept on lifting off brakes is very nice to have though.

I'm sure Ferrari included the Auto Mode on the Speciale DCT for the wives who use them as their daily driver. Lol!

[clar]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I'm sure Ferrari included the Auto Mode on the Speciale DCT for the wives who use them as their daily driver. Lol!

LOL. My wife hates the Speciale and won't get behind the wheel even if her life depended on it!

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by clar

LOL. My wife hates the Speciale and won't get behind the wheel even if her life depended on it!

Thats a good thing; no chance at rims getting curbed or the front getting scraped.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by M5essex

thanks all for your comments

can I ask.... is it normal for the PDK to not allow you go into 7th gear when in auto and 'sport' and when in 'sport plus' you cannot even manually change into 7th with the paddles.. is this correct?

also when in sp+ and in auto, it doesn't seem to change gear until it red lines. so you are forced to put it in manual and play with the paddles. not a problem and I guess its for race/track time. but a curious setting...

I am loving it. and have discovered a few more functions this morning on the way to work with the handsfree, voice control, car and media functions.

another question sorry.... at what point does the rear and front spoiler become automatic over c70-mph? only when in Sport or sport plus modes? do you need to press the spoiler button just once and then it's auto or hold it down for like 5 seconds to fully extend? but then it's up and out all the time?!

thanks

Is there an "auto" mode? Mine only had Sport+ Manual...I think.-LOL

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

If you go to the Pcar I would try to land a GT3 over the GTS because the price point is to close to the GT3 minus all the kick asserformance. The PDK-S is hands down better than the DCT. When I drive my M5 the shifts are far more slower. Drive the GT3 if you can.

PDK-S>PDK ,DCT, MAC SSG, Ferrari Getrag. I have not driven the Speciale so I cannot comment logically in terms of comparisons but the PDK-S is almost imperceptible in terms of shift speed. Honestly, it is truly amazing.

[Actor]

Fabulous car; congrats. guess you have to change your "call sign"!

[clar]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Thats a good thing; no chance at rims getting curbed or the front getting scraped.

Well I managed to curb it all by myself These things don't bother me much these days. I guess I have grown out of that stage of trying to pamper every inch of the car. I just focus on enjoying the drive

[clar]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Is there an "auto" mode? Mine only had Sport+ Manual...I think.-LOL

The auto mode on the Mac is supposedly better than Ferrari's from what I have heard.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by clar

The auto mode on the Mac is supposedly better than Ferrari's from what I have heard.

I never use the Auto Mode on my 458, not sure if its the same as the Speciale but it loves to roll up the gears no matter what the speed is and even when I floor it it leaves rpm's on the table (downshift from 7 to 4 lets say). I just love the manual interaction of the steering wheel with the 458 and throttle blips down.