Chris Harris drives the new E63S- Video inside

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Sounds like this new E63S is truly a great car. Now I just need to drive one! No doubt doubt the next F90 M5 will be outstanding in the performance department, I just don't think I can forgive them for using the same engine as the F10 M5 or the rear brake calipers for that matter! Even if the F90 M5 is lighter and better car than the E63S I think I might actually prefer the Mercedes since it is so different. The F90 just shares too many similarities with the F10, I would feel like I'm buying the same car again but only with AWD now.

Agree with your assessment, and I feel like BMW was lazy here and didn't want to spend any money! Give us the same car, and we will come running to the water hole. 2018 will be the first time since 1999 I have not had a BMW in my garage. Never owned a Merc before so will we see, and said the same with Porsche I'm on #4 now since 2013 with two in the garage. Comes to four doors I will just keep driving my 2011 Escalade with 30k miles, and it's bullet proof. My Pcars have allowed me to keep cash in my pocket and take a beating. You have driven the heck out of your M5 they should buy it from you, and place in a museum.

[CarlosM4]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Sounds like this new E63S is truly a great car. Now I just need to drive one! No doubt doubt the next F90 M5 will be outstanding in the performance department, I just don't think I can forgive them for using the same engine as the F10 M5 or the rear brake calipers for that matter! Even if the F90 M5 is lighter and better car than the E63S I think I might actually prefer the Mercedes since it is so different. The F90 just shares too many similarities with the F10, I would feel like I'm buying the same car again but only with AWD now.

It is a great car. Maybe I over-hyped it slightly because I was tingling with the excitement of driving the car when I wrote the review, but it is an impeccable piece of kit. The car will be arriving in Brazil in September (first orders) and hopefully I will get to drive it in the road to confirm if it is that good. Honestly though I loved the E63, and if it weren't for its absurd price of $240,000 here, I would have put a order on it.

From my past experience comparing the E 63 to the older cars I owned, I feel like it is currently alone in a class of its own.

The M5 F10 was a great car for me, but I always felt the chassis couldn't cope with the phenomenal fire power under the bonnet. It was a great car in terms of comfort ride (oddly enough the M5 F10 was more comfortable in Comfort than the 535i F10 lol), and it had great handling characteristics, but it never quite got there. The steering was too devoid of any feel (it was a MY2013 car without CP), and the car rolled a bit more than what I liked, besides the slightest throttle input would upset the whole balance, and the thing would rocket sideways and give me quite the goosebumps. It was either too understeery, or too oversteery, I could never get it to handle at its sweetspot (although the few times I got there, I absolutely loved it). I still enjoyed the car a lot though, especially because it was an amazing all-round package. I believe CP cars, or 2014 LCI cars have a revised steering rack and front suspension that very likely improves the steering feel and reduces the understeer a bit.

Before the M5 F10, I owned a CLS 63 PP with RWD, which was a complete hoot (and I still to this day think it handled better than the M5 F10 2013), but it was a car that fell apart everytime I came within 9 or 10/10 of its limit handling. The steering which had great feedback and weight would turn to goo, and the transmission although wonderful whn left to its own devices, was far too slow in manual mode. It also had the same problem as the M5, its sweetspot between oversteer and understeer was almost impossible to find, because the chassis couldn't deal with the obscene power. It was still a great package though, with supple ride, great noise, and nice steering.

I then moved to the E 63 4Matic and regretted the change almost immediately. I didn't want an RS7 or RS6 because I am sorry to whoever owns or owned one of this, but it just isn't a driver's car. It is a complete turd. It understeers like there is no tommorow, steering feel is absolutely atrocious, bodyroll is gigantic, and the whole thing feels like it is taped together. The E 63 fixed all the traction complaints, but upon fixing the traction problem, AMG hit a chassis problem. The chassis couldn't cope with the new speeds and demand of the traction advantage. Therefore the slow transmission felt even slower, the brakes felt uncapable of stopping the car, and the steering felt far more imprecise than on the CLS. Nevertheless handling was pretty neutral, and ride comfort was beyond amazing. The E 63 W212 didn't need a lot to improve substantially. Stiffer suspension, transmission tuning and better brakes would have made it the ultimate M-killer. Small things that would overall account for a massive difference.

Lastly comes the M6 GC, and I loved it. Despite the waywardness of the RWD with 600+hp and 2ton weight, the car felt light, balanced, nimble and precise. It didn't have the imprecise steering of the AMGs at the limit, or that sense of mass that the M5 had. Nonetheless it was a car with very tricky handling, that could either understeer or oversteer badly, but it was far more predictable than any of the above. Steering feel was pretty good, and the whole chassis felt very solid. The sweet spot between understeer and oversteer was far easier to reach, but if you got out of the spot, the M6 GC was the snappiest of all of the above (it didn't tolerate mistakes well, I span twice with this bad boy on track). This was my all time favorite saloon, until the new E 63 came along.

The new E 63 has the ability and feel of the M6 GC in terms of cornering and precision, but with the traction and grip of an RS6 or an old E 63 4Matic. That is why it is a killer package. It literally fixes all that was wrong with all of the above, and joins that together in one car. For a 2ton car with 600+hp it is just plain brilliant.

The only review that really complains about the E 63's handling is this one:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...upe-group-test

Autocar complained that the new E 63 became too harsh riding, and that it is far too protective, and uncommunicative at the limit, when compared to the M6 GC. To my eyes, this is utter bullshit. I drove the M6 GC on the same track as the new E 63, and trust me the M6 GC does not have the edge on handling in any aspect

[CarlosM4]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Agree with your assessment, and I feel like BMW was lazy here and didn't want to spend any money! Give us the same car, and we will come running to the water hole. 2018 will be the first time since 1999 I have not had a BMW in my garage. Never owned a Merc before so will we see, and said the same with Porsche I'm on #4 now since 2013 with two in the garage. Comes to four doors I will just keep driving my 2011 Escalade with 30k miles, and it's bullet proof. My Pcars have allowed me to keep cash in my pocket and take a beating. You have driven the heck out of your M5 they should buy it from you, and place in a museum.

The M5 F10 was already a pretty good car. There was not a lot more BMW could do with it. I believe they have chosen to play it safe to avoid losing costumers. Nevertheless I am with you on the aspect that BMW was lazy especially when you consider they chose to use ZF8 tranny and the same 4.4TT engine.

To my eyes since you never had a AMG, I think the AMG brand is at their ultimate line-up in the last 10 years, and their cars are becoming more and more the new best driver car in the respective price ranges. The C 63 AMG S Coupe has beaten the M4 in most track comparos, the new E 63 is outstanding, the AMG GTS is sublime. I believe AMG currently is the BMW M from 2003 to about 2010

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by CarlosM4

The M5 F10 was already a pretty good car. There was not a lot more BMW could do with it. I believe they have chosen to play it safe to avoid losing costumers. Nevertheless I am with you on the aspect that BMW was lazy especially when you consider they chose to use ZF8 tranny and the same 4.4TT engine.

To my eyes since you never had a AMG, I think the AMG brand is at their ultimate line-up in the last 10 years, and their cars are becoming more and more the new best driver car in the respective price ranges. The C 63 AMG S Coupe has beaten the M4 in most track comparos, the new E 63 is outstanding, the AMG GTS is sublime. I believe AMG currently is the BMW M from 2003 to about 2010

I think playing it safe will cause them to loose customers ....they have stuck a M badge on everything it's not special anymore. They have reduced they MTC programs by one year, and no break coverage clear sign on cost reduction. I tried they M4, and it's the car I didn't buy since 2005 (545i) I will gladly turn in 2018, and let the wife drive it. Pick up my Spyder Friday can't wait. I have a thing for NA motors love the sound and feel.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by CarlosM4

There was not a lot more BMW could do with it.

I agree with this completely. And I also agree with Bimmer6's feelings about M Division lately.

This is why I elected to keep my F10 M5 and never sell it. I felt that the car could be taken further and I have taken it a lot further and still further yet to come in the near future. As it sits now, my personal F10 M5 is 96lbs lighter than a standard F10 M5, has at least 15% better handling, and makes around 40% more power. I feel like I solved some of the worst attributes to the F10 M5 (also one of them being exhaust note), so I feel that any improvements in traction through a new AWD, a lighter chassis, better tech, heck even a new carbon fiber roof on the new F90 M5 won't be enough to make me buy one. Plus I live in Southern California where I don't need AWD. The Mercedes seems different though, more luxurious, well executed, exceptional chassis development, and if Carlos's review of the new E63S is really true, then it may upset the balance of the force, but I'm OK with that, because competition is the best thing that can happen between auto manufacturers. And although I have never really been a fan of AMG's exhaust notes (that deep throaty sound), it still sounds better with its stock exhaust that the M5 does. I'm very excited to see the new E63S in person, although my number one complaint about it already before even having seen one, is that looks too much like both the C-Class and S-Class. I just wish Mercedes design language would make more differentiation between the 3 classes of sedans these days.

[CarlosM4]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I agree with this completely. And I also agree with Bimmer6's feelings about M Division lately.

This is why I elected to keep my F10 M5 and never sell it. I felt that the car could be taken further and I have taken it a lot further and still further yet to come in the near future. As it sits now, my personal F10 M5 is 96lbs lighter than a standard F10 M5, has at least 15% better handling, and makes around 40% more power. I feel like I solved some of the worst attributes to the F10 M5 (also one of them being exhaust note), so I feel that any improvements in traction through a new AWD, a lighter chassis, better tech, heck even a new carbon fiber roof on the new F90 M5 won't be enough to make me buy one. Plus I live in Southern California where I don't need AWD. The Mercedes seems different though, more luxurious, well executed, exceptional chassis development, and if Carlos's review of the new E63S is really true, then it may upset the balance of the force, but I'm OK with that, because competition is the best thing that can happen between auto manufacturers. And although I have never really been a fan of AMG's exhaust notes (that deep throaty sound), it still sounds better with its stock exhaust that the M5 does. I'm very excited to see the new E63S in person, although my number one complaint about it already before even having seen one, is that looks too much like both the C-Class and S-Class. I just wish Mercedes design language would make more differentiation between the 3 classes of sedans these days.

Well given the situation of your current M5 F10 I have to agree, the upgrade is not really that worthwhile. The new M5 F90 is just really more of the same, they are basically fixing the issues the F10 had which was the feeling of weight, traction limitations and that is about it really. The M5 F10 was already a very nice package.

The new E 63 to my eyes is a game changer, it takes the category of super saloons a step further. I have yet to drive the car on the road to see if it really is that good in normal conditions as it is on track, but as a 4door heavyweight car, it is pretty darn capable on track. Obviously I am considering this given the limitations of weight and size, because despite everything I said about the E 63, it still feels like a heavy car. Nevertheless it's 4WD and its chassis electronics is programmed in a way that it feels unlike any other previous 4WD heavyweight car. Chris Harris himself said it feels like a saloon GTR or FF, and (I have never driven any of the two, but I have had a lot of sit time in a 997 MK2 Turbo) I believe him.

Now the design I will concede it does look a lot like a C-Class, for example the back end of the C 63 AMG S and the E 63 AMG S is pretty similar, it is not like M5 F10 and M3 F82, where they are quite clearly completely different animals.

To my eyes what BMW has to do to really ace and kill the E 63 is make the F90 sound good, add a 4WD system that is as intuitive and intelligent as the one presented on the E 63, and lastly

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by CarlosM4

Well given the situation of your current M5 F10 I have to agree, the upgrade is not really that worthwhile. The new M5 F90 is just really more of the same, they are basically fixing the issues the F10 had which was the feeling of weight, traction limitations and that is about it really. The M5 F10 was already a very nice package.

The new E 63 to my eyes is a game changer, it takes the category of super saloons a step further. I have yet to drive the car on the road to see if it really is that good in normal conditions as it is on track, but as a 4door heavyweight car, it is pretty darn capable on track. Obviously I am considering this given the limitations of weight and size, because despite everything I said about the E 63, it still feels like a heavy car. Nevertheless it's 4WD and its chassis electronics is programmed in a way that it feels unlike any other previous 4WD heavyweight car. Chris Harris himself said it feels like a saloon GTR or FF, and (I have never driven any of the two, but I have had a lot of sit time in a 997 MK2 Turbo) I believe him.

Now the design I will concede it does look a lot like a C-Class, for example the back end of the C 63 AMG S and the E 63 AMG S is pretty similar, it is not like M5 F10 and M3 F82, where they are quite clearly completely different animals.

To my eyes what BMW has to do to really ace and kill the E 63 is make the F90 sound good, add a 4WD system that is as intuitive and intelligent as the one presented on the E 63, and lastly

Indeed.

Ways in which I know the M5 will be better than the E63S:

- iDrive 6.0 is superior although the new Merc Infotainment is pretty good
- Carbon Fiber Roof
- The entire chassis will use more aluminum and will be lighter
- Unique styling that sets is apart from the 3-Series and 7-Series
- I'm pretty sure the M5 engine will rev higher than the E63S engine


Ways in which I'm not sure if the M5 will be better:

- AWD system
- Exhaust Note (Although we have already spied a never before utilized button in an ///M car, the exhaust flap button)
- Automatic Torque Converter Transmission (Especially Shift Speed and Smoothness)
- Handling
- Not sure if the new Bowers and Wilkins will be better than Mercs sound system
- Does the Merc E63S come with an option for TV screens in the back seat? I know the F90 M5 will get this option though
- Possible Autonomous Driving features
- Not sure which car will have better steering feel, does E63S also have Electronic Steering as the F90 M5 will use?
- M5 may have more horsepower from the factory than the E63S, we still don't know the M5's official power rating yet

Ways in which the M5 will not be better than the E63S:

- M5 will use old F10 M5 engine
- Interior of the M5 won't be as luxurious as the E63S
- E63S exhaust note will sound better and louder with factory exhausts on both cars
- Even with Carbon Ceramics on the F90 M5, I do feel that Mercedes will have the superior Carbon Brake System, same goes for steels
- E63S will probably have better interior ergonomics


Things that would make the F90 M5 truly stand out as the benchmark in the Sport Sedan category:

- It will have to have a better AWD system than the competitors
- Superior chassis weight, balance, and engineering
- Superior Steering feel
- Better minor options (such as if they brought the Active Side Bolsters from the E60 M5)
- More aggressive looks perhaps (Carbon Fiber Roof will help a lot), although some people prefer Mercedes more elegant and serious design language.

Time will tell.

[stealth.pilot]

Interesting perspectives here.

I agree that BMW has consigned itself to being an also ran with its conservative approach to the F90. I have zero interest in it.

I don't agree that Dave's mods make the F90 irrelevant because his M5 doesn't address the most important thing that needed modding which is the lack of AWD and associated lack of traction. The M5 wasn't able to use its power effectively.

I believe that nobody gets an AWD sports car right on the first attempt. BMW will be behind Benz who has been doing this for longer. The E63 is still not as good as the Porsche in this regard. Mercedes and BMW made the mistake of trying to build an AWD car that drives like a RWD car and in so doing they are compromising performance. I would rather they build an AWD car that drives like a 911 Turbo S or a Nissan GTR - i.e. Uses AWD to flatter the driver as much as possible by optimizing speed through coroners and turning in the fastest track times. Porsche gets this. You won't see them making phrases about trying to preserve the rear wheel drive feel (aka wheel slippage and sliding). Mercedes has closed the gap with the W213 vs the W212 E63S but they still haven't had the epiphany that they should forget about the RWD-ness of the car. BMW will certainly be even further behind. The way they compromised M-Dynamic mode with excessive wheel slip on the F10M is a good example of how they are trying to build a drift mobile rather than a fast car. They are still stuck in this mindset (which btw is also the mustang mindset, the hellcat mindset, the Camaro mindset and the mindset of the engineers behind other shit cars).

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Sounds like this new E63S is truly a great car. Now I just need to drive one! No doubt doubt the next F90 M5 will be outstanding in the performance department, I just don't think I can forgive them for using the same engine as the F10 M5 or the rear brake calipers for that matter! Even if the F90 M5 is lighter and better car than the E63S I think I might actually prefer the Mercedes since it is so different. The F90 just shares too many similarities with the F10, I would feel like I'm buying the same car again but only with AWD now.

I think that's the main point, C and D just test drive the M5 and when it comes to the engine, yes it's awesome, but it's also too familiar, oh wait, because its practically the same engine!

I think once you get past the AWD and the new ZF box, it may feel like you are driving the same car (though better performing that's for sure).

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Interesting perspectives here.

I agree that BMW has consigned itself to being an also ran with its conservative approach to the F90. I have zero interest in it.

I don't agree that Dave's mods make the F90 irrelevant because his M5 doesn't address the most important thing that needed modding which is the lack of AWD and associated lack of traction. The M5 wasn't able to use its power effectively.

I believe that nobody gets an AWD sports car right on the first attempt. BMW will be behind Benz who has been doing this for longer. The E63 is still not as good as the Porsche in this regard. Mercedes and BMW made the mistake of trying to build an AWD car that drives like a RWD car and in so doing they are compromising performance. I would rather they build an AWD car that drives like a 911 Turbo S or a Nissan GTR - i.e. Uses AWD to flatter the driver as much as possible by optimizing speed through coroners and turning in the fastest track times. Porsche gets this. You won't see them making phrases about trying to preserve the rear wheel drive feel (aka wheel slippage and sliding). Mercedes has closed the gap with the W213 vs the W212 E63S but they still haven't had the epiphany that they should forget about the RWD-ness of the car. BMW will certainly be even further behind. The way they compromised M-Dynamic mode with excessive wheel slip on the F10M is a good example of how they are trying to build a drift mobile rather than a fast car. They are still stuck in this mindset (which btw is also the mustang mindset, the hellcat mindset, the Camaro mindset and the mindset of the engineers behind other shit cars).

Well said, and the key point here to me and me only his senseless to have a car that's freaking 4K lbs and thinks it's going to work like a 3K car? It was never built to behave like a light car because of physics. I tracked a M5 it's not fun lugging all that weight around the track, and it eats up the tires.

Now the real intent is to have a 4 door car that's fast when we want to play boy racer, and it looks good. Make it look good, and traction to make the power usable. I can care less about drifting a car that's 4K lbs, and living in the tire shop. M3 and M4 are good for RWD, but the bus with all the power will slip and slide thus I think MB and Porsche made the car perform correctly based on physics. Not basing BMW which I have owned since 1999, but for the first time it will be 19 years I'm concerned direction wise where they are going. I just see them going the cheap route with terrible interiors, and note makening the car before. As I said before too many M cars ...jack of all trades master of none is the direction. Hope they prove me wrong, but I will sit on the sidelines and watch vs. buying without driving the car. If I have to fix the sound to make it sound better that's another deal breaker. Make it right the first time because they know we all bitch about it, but wait they will come out with the competition package after we purchased??! Get like Porsche add a freaking sports exhaust button not hard!

[CarlosM4]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Indeed.

Ways in which I know the M5 will be better than the E63S:

- iDrive 6.0 is superior although the new Merc Infotainment is pretty good
- Carbon Fiber Roof
- The entire chassis will use more aluminum and will be lighter
- Unique styling that sets is apart from the 3-Series and 7-Series
- I'm pretty sure the M5 engine will rev higher than the E63S engine


Ways in which I'm not sure if the M5 will be better:

- AWD system
- Exhaust Note (Although we have already spied a never before utilized button in an ///M car, the exhaust flap button)
- Automatic Torque Converter Transmission (Especially Shift Speed and Smoothness)
- Handling
- Not sure if the new Bowers and Wilkins will be better than Mercs sound system
- Does the Merc E63S come with an option for TV screens in the back seat? I know the F90 M5 will get this option though
- Possible Autonomous Driving features
- Not sure which car will have better steering feel, does E63S also have Electronic Steering as the F90 M5 will use?
- M5 may have more horsepower from the factory than the E63S, we still don't know the M5's official power rating yet

Ways in which the M5 will not be better than the E63S:

- M5 will use old F10 M5 engine
- Interior of the M5 won't be as luxurious as the E63S
- E63S exhaust note will sound better and louder with factory exhausts on both cars
- Even with Carbon Ceramics on the F90 M5, I do feel that Mercedes will have the superior Carbon Brake System, same goes for steels
- E63S will probably have better interior ergonomics


Things that would make the F90 M5 truly stand out as the benchmark in the Sport Sedan category:

- It will have to have a better AWD system than the competitors
- Superior chassis weight, balance, and engineering
- Superior Steering feel
- Better minor options (such as if they brought the Active Side Bolsters from the E60 M5)
- More aggressive looks perhaps (Carbon Fiber Roof will help a lot), although some people prefer Mercedes more elegant and serious design language.

Time will tell.

I believe your post is pretty much spot on. I completely agree with everything you said. The sound system and minor options too will be pretty hard to tell (since the E 63 has that 3D sound optional extra from the S63), and it has active bolsters and massage as option, and Merc's active bolster seat in the old car was already awesome. Nevertheless the seats on this new E 63 (I drove one without the optional extra) are excellent. Great cushioning and it goes nice and low.

I have spent some time on the current E 250 and the 528i from this new gen of cars. To my eyes the E has the advantage on all the tech features, and I find Command to be more intuitive than IDrive. Nevertheless both are complicated softwares to get accostumed to.

I am not a fan of Carbon Fiber roof (I don't give two shits about gaining 0.2s s when this comes at the expense of losing the sunroof), and BMW will be making a mistake if they don't offer a panoramic sunroof option, because the panoramic sunroof on the E 63 is just wonderful.

I think the main symbolic difference between both cars won't even be weight (the biggest difference so far presented has been 110kg, but if we base on DIN weight measurements the Merc is 1875kg (which is the same weight as the W212) and the M5 F90 has been stated to be around 1835kg (55kg less than the F10), but I believe the powertrain is the main difference. The M177 engine from Merc has a more racing edge and quicker throttle response, in fact the way the engine revs is very nice for a twin-turbo engine. The S63TT is a great engine too though, but I think it will be very hard for it to have the edge on the M177. The M5 will probably rev more (about 7.5k rpm vs 7.2k rpm) but it won't be that much of a difference.

Where I feel the M5 will have the edge is steering feel. The steering feel in the E 63 is pretty good for a electric setup but it is not the best in the business. The W212 had better feel although the steering turned to mush when driving at the limit (this doesn't happen with the W213). The M5 will probably also have a slight edge in terms of weight and overall balance, but I doubt there will be a lot of difference, in fact I think both will be equally good dinamically.

The thing about the E 63 is it came first and it has set the standard for this new generation of cars. Once you drive it, if you are a guy that really likes this category of super saloons there is no getting around the fact that the car is incredibly precise and absurdly fast. And it has that excitement and driving dynamics that we enjoyed on this gen of M5 and M6 GC, with the traction and grip that these cars never had.

[CarlosM4]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Interesting perspectives here.

I agree that BMW has consigned itself to being an also ran with its conservative approach to the F90. I have zero interest in it.

I don't agree that Dave's mods make the F90 irrelevant because his M5 doesn't address the most important thing that needed modding which is the lack of AWD and associated lack of traction. The M5 wasn't able to use its power effectively.

I believe that nobody gets an AWD sports car right on the first attempt. BMW will be behind Benz who has been doing this for longer. The E63 is still not as good as the Porsche in this regard. Mercedes and BMW made the mistake of trying to build an AWD car that drives like a RWD car and in so doing they are compromising performance. I would rather they build an AWD car that drives like a 911 Turbo S or a Nissan GTR - i.e. Uses AWD to flatter the driver as much as possible by optimizing speed through coroners and turning in the fastest track times. Porsche gets this. You won't see them making phrases about trying to preserve the rear wheel drive feel (aka wheel slippage and sliding). Mercedes has closed the gap with the W213 vs the W212 E63S but they still haven't had the epiphany that they should forget about the RWD-ness of the car. BMW will certainly be even further behind. The way they compromised M-Dynamic mode with excessive wheel slip on the F10M is a good example of how they are trying to build a drift mobile rather than a fast car. They are still stuck in this mindset (which btw is also the mustang mindset, the hellcat mindset, the Camaro mindset and the mindset of the engineers behind other shit cars).

I agree with the sense that the lack of AWD is the major fault of the M5 F10. 560hp with RWD and 2tons to carry around is insane.

On the other hand, I don't think Merc's AWD system is not as good as Porsche's. In fact it is the exact same setup that a 911 Turbo or a GTR use. It provides the rear with the power most of the time (to get better turn-in, less understeer), and provides the front wheels with more torque the moment you start exiting the corner. Because of this setup it has some sliding around, but so does a 911. The GTR does also slide a bit for that matter. To do that you have to be obviously be 100% on power, with all the nannies off, but the E 63 AWD does have the same overall logic and setup of these cars. The main advantage that I can spot from the E 63 is that the transition and the torque vectoring is more progressive and natural than you think. It has been a general consensus (and from my experience with the car) I can assure you, you don't feel the power going around the different wheels, everything is very natural. The E 63 AMG doesn't feel like a RWD car, unless you go full bonkers and access drift mode. It does steer with the accuracy of a RWD car, and it does slide a bit, but it drives like a AWD car. If you mash the throttle in corner exit, you are not going to spin around in a cloud of your own smoke.

[CarlosM4]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Well said, and the key point here to me and me only his senseless to have a car that's freaking 4K lbs and thinks it's going to work like a 3K car? It was never built to behave like a light car because of physics. I tracked a M5 it's not fun lugging all that weight around the track, and it eats up the tires.

Now the real intent is to have a 4 door car that's fast when we want to play boy racer, and it looks good. Make it look good, and traction to make the power usable. I can care less about drifting a car that's 4K lbs, and living in the tire shop. M3 and M4 are good for RWD, but the bus with all the power will slip and slide thus I think MB and Porsche made the car perform correctly based on physics. Not basing BMW which I have owned since 1999, but for the first time it will be 19 years I'm concerned direction wise where they are going. I just see them going the cheap route with terrible interiors, and note makening the car before. As I said before too many M cars ...jack of all trades master of none is the direction. Hope they prove me wrong, but I will sit on the sidelines and watch vs. buying without driving the car. If I have to fix the sound to make it sound better that's another deal breaker. Make it right the first time because they know we all bitch about it, but wait they will come out with the competition package after we purchased??! Get like Porsche add a freaking sports exhaust button not hard!

The M5 F90 will fix most of these issues. I agree that a 4k lb sports cars should be focused on being nice to drive and eventually nice to have a laugh and out accelerate most of the things on the street, without having the eminent danger of spinning out and killing you because of traction and grip. Nevertheless it is fun to hoon around and smoke some tyres, therefore I feel it is valid that the buyer should have the option to select between different AWD setups. I completely agree with the AWD, AWD Sport, and RWD that the M5 and E 63 feature built in to their programming.

And trust me when I say this, the E 63 does the AWD part of being secure and easy to drive fast part very well. And I believe the M5 will too.

[CarlosM4]

Found an excellent review of the new E 63 AMG S comparing it to the new Panamera Turbo.

http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...arison-107574/

http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...-track-107689/

Review of only the E 63:
http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...review-107295/

http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...review-107741/

Enjoy the read

[CarlosM4]

https://www.pistonheads.com/road-tes...k-review/36221

Another nice review. Apparently AMG fucked up the ride comfort. Everyone is saying the car is too harsh riding. That is a true pity.

Although the same guy criticized the ride of the M5 F10 Jahre Edition too (which is the same suspension as the Competition Package) https://www.pistonheads.com/news/gen...e-driven/32643

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

I don't agree that Dave's mods make the F90 irrelevant because his M5 doesn't address the most important thing that needed modding which is the lack of AWD and associated lack of traction. The M5 wasn't able to use its power effectively.

I didn't mean to imply that mods to the F10 M5 will make the F90 M5 irrelevant, this can never be true. The chassis of the F90 is completely different for starters. It's the same as with the E60 M5 compared to the F10 M5. A good example, is that even though the E60 M5 is nearly 400lbs lighter than the F10 M5, the F10 M5 definitely handles significantly better. Also, I believe that you can get a custom made supercharged stroker S85 V10 nowadays that may be making almost 1,000hp, yet the F10 is still not irrelevant because there's so much more to it than just power.

I agree with everyone's thoughts that traction was the number one issue with all of these high torque RWD super sedans. However I contend that not everyone drives these kinds of cars the same way. I never really had a problem putting the power down from a 30 or 40mph roll. I rarely ever launch these sedans from a dig and if I do, I want that tire spin, I want that smoke to happen. I'm not trying to race that kid in his AWD Impreza at the stop light all the time. I like some drama when I step on the gas with DSC OFF, but that's just me.

Unlike Stealth, I do think that BMW and Mercedes made the right decision to concentrate on an AWD system where you can select when you want it to be RWD only, this will maintain the M RWD philosophy from the past. Let Porsche be the fastest 4-door car around the Nurburgring with their NASA grade 200 million lines of code AWD system. That's ok! Like I have said a million times, owners who buy super sedans, rarely ever take them to the track. AWD or not, these kinds of cars are just too heavy for the track. Which has always been fine by me. If I wanted a great track car, heck I can even go out and buy a used 991 base 911 Carrera with only 350hp and still produce a better track time than a BMW M4. The only thing that these companies can do to make these super sedans great track cars is to significantly reduce their weight and that's not going to happen. Not unless we get a company that will make one of these types of cars with a completely carbon fiber chassis or something like that. But then, that's what we have the M3 for, it's already under 3,500lbs with the 6MT option.

Anyways, I am excited to see the new E63S in person one day, I seriously can't wait to test drive one!

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by CarlosM4

Found an excellent review of the new E 63 AMG S comparing it to the new Panamera Turbo.

http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...arison-107574/

http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...-track-107689/

Review of only the E 63:
http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...review-107295/

http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...review-107741/

Enjoy the read

Nice!

[Vic55]

great dialogue here no doubt---- I can't wait for an owner to chime in; i hear stateside deliveries are going to be circa the end of July.

I found the first few MSRP cars and both are Edition 1's at 133,145. I know this is at the high point against F10 M5's (mine was 133k) but its a lot of bang for the buck IMHO.

P88 Edition 1: AMG Night Package Components, 20" AMG Black Forged
872 : Heated Rear Seats
810 : Burmester® Surround Sound System
732 : AMG Carbon Fiber Center Console Trim
640 : LED Intelligent Light System
608 : Adaptive Highbeam Assist
596 : Infrared-absorbing Glass
555 : AMG Performance Seats
546 : Speed Limit Pilot
540 : Power Rear-Window Sunshade
513 : Speed Limit Assist
51U : Black Fabric Headliner
501 : Surround View Camera
463 : Head-Up Display with AMG Specific Content
413 : Panorama Sunroof
293 : Rear Side Airbags (SPC)
266 : DISTRONIC PLUS with Steering Assist
233 : DISTRONIC PLUS (with PRE-SAFE Brake)
23P : Driver Assistance Package
U78 : AMG Performance Exhaust System
U66 : Edition 1 Floormats w/ Yellow Stitching
U50 : AMG Night Package Steering Code
RTS : 20" AMG Black Forged Cross-Spoke Wheels
P60 : AMG Exterior Night Styling
P44 : Parking Package (RVC & Parktronic)
P35 : Lighting Package
P21 : AIR BALANCE Cabin Air Purification and Fragrance

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Vic55

U66 : Edition 1 Floormats w/ Yellow Stitching

I like how Mercedes really goes the extra mile with the small details. I am willing to bet large sums that when the F90 M5 comes out it won't even get floor mats with the M5 logo on them, just like what happened when the F10 M5 first came out. Also, as long as the E63S has adjustable side-bolsters on the front seats, they will already be winning. Lol!

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I like how Mercedes really goes the extra mile with the small details. I am willing to bet large sums that when the F90 M5 comes out it won't even get floor mats with the M5 logo on them, just like what happened when the F10 M5 first came out. Also, as long as the E63S has adjustable side-bolsters on the front seats, they will already be winning. Lol!

After 8 M's I cant remember one that had the M embossed logo- maybe my E39 M5 but that was 15 years ago

Dave, remember the 2013 F10 M5 debacle; no side bolsters but the F13 M6 in 2013 got them? Everyone was all pissed off.

I have no doubt the seats will have full contour adjustments.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Vic55

I think he likes it LOL.... the car, based on his comments (which I respect), appears to be everything and even more. I did hear a comparison of the exhaust with a C63S wagon and I agree, its a bit tame. But the rest of the car is going to be awesome. AMG has gone a bit strong on its dampers and he commented as well. In my C63S and GTS; the cars are borderline painful at times even on better paved roads.


Anyways... check it out:


https://www.topgear.com/videos/chris...edes-amg-e63-s

Looks like E63 is coming to someone's garage soon

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Looks like E63 is coming to someone's garage soon

Maybe but probably not yet.... Im going to let the markup subside first. The early adopters will pay a premium. No AMG is worth a markup, especially on a regular production car.