Traction, or lack of

[DTP1980]

There is a notable amount of slap-dash advice being given here. Plenty of ‘solutions’ to a straight line traction problem, but no consideration to the effect of handling, ride comfort, noise levels, cost, effect on insurance. E.g., larger rear tyres will increase a cars likelyhood of understeer. Also, with wider tyres comes a marked increased risk of aqua (hydro) -planing, in a country which is a large island, and wet for considerable portions of the year. BMW invests millions in ensuring best all round performance.

And unless you have access to some serious time, effort and someone with years of experience, altering the tracking setup could leave you in a heap of trouble when that minor alteration doesn’t favour a certain set of road conditions.

Tyre quality diminishes over time, not just through wear, but degradation of rubber caused by heat stress and UV etc. You are right, the 4S replaces the MPSS and is the wisest upgrade suggested here.

Also, check your driving style. I can’t comment on yours of course, but I find there is plenty of chassis feedback to tell when i’m pressing on the accelerator too fast, and therefore to back off a touch and keep wheelspin at bay, without losing the performance the car is capable of. No hot hatch has ever shown me a clean pair of heels.

[Dwaynos]

I understand that I need to limit the throttle when I accelerate but then it just doesn't go like it should, the car is capable of so much more. I've felt it's full power from low speeds a couple of times and it's fantastic, I just need this to happen more often. I'm not expecting the power to go to the road every time but I'm just trying to improve it. I've had a Skoda vrs and a seat Leon keep up to me to nearly illegal speeds, this to me is not acceptable.

So are you saying I shouldn't go with the 305s? I'm not a track man nor do I enjoy hammering it round country lanes, I'm a straight line kind of guy and want to show other road users what the m5 is capable of. So far I havnt been able to do this. I actually get a little embarrassed.

[Kisenwether]

I was in the same boat about the power of this car is kinda useless until I put new tires on the rear. I guess the previous owner got the wrong variant of the 295/30/20 Pzeros (wider and had a decent bulge). Got new bmw variant rear PZeros and I hold tracation in second now for the most part with MDM on. I use to break 2nd with little throttle on the worn down pzeros that were the wrong variant. Now its hooks up pretty well and makes the car fun to drive.

*Not a fan of the Pzero but have almost brand new fronts and I cant miss match rears. Ill drive myself crazy seeing that every day.

[Dwaynos]

That's good to know. I think I'm going to go for the Michelin 4s though. What variant of these.do I need?

[dsmclark]

Originally Posted by Dwaynos

That's good to know. I think I'm going to go for the Michelin 4s though. What variant of these.do I need?

Variant?

I went for these:
Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 295/35 ZR19 (104Y) XL MO1, with rim protection ridge
Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 265/40 ZR19 (102Y) XL MO1, with rim protection ridge
from mytyres and it was night and day difference over the super sports I had fitted before. I did contemplate getting the 305 rears but where I am on the stock 19" I didn't bother. Might treat myself to a new set of wheels in the new year

[M5 TT]

Originally Posted by DTP1980

There is a notable amount of slap-dash advice being given here. Plenty of ‘solutions’ to a straight line traction problem, but no consideration to the effect of handling, ride comfort, noise levels, cost, effect on insurance. E.g., larger rear tyres will increase a cars likelyhood of understeer. Also, with wider tyres comes a marked increased risk of aqua (hydro) -planing, in a country which is a large island, and wet for considerable portions of the year. BMW invests millions in ensuring best all round performance.

And unless you have access to some serious time, effort and someone with years of experience, altering the tracking setup could leave you in a heap of trouble when that minor alteration doesn’t favour a certain set of road conditions.

Yup, but with your attitude nothing ever progresses. If you are happy with your car then that's fine. I wanted to try other things and as far as I am concerned that is fine to. Unless you have evidence that what people have done has a negative effect its just word with no evidence to back it up. So far with my set up I feel nothing negative only positive. That maybe different on a track but I will never be on a track so no problem for me.

BMW spent millions getting 560bhp out of the car ensuring best all round performance but who cares 700 is way better

[WickedBMW]

To be honest, I really like this car. I think it’s all about personal preference. I love that adrenaline rush knowing that if you don’t properly drive it, it will kill you. If you are straight line racer than 0-60 might be very important to you, but for myself emotions that’s where it’s at. One of the biggest regrets I have is not buying MB CLK63AMG BS car on a cheap. Now, these cars are much more in comparison to eight years ago. Black Serious is absolute bonkers of a car. Useless in a straight line, but boy it’s fun to drive it.

[TheHouseWon]

MP4S here and they improved traction dramatically... I had Pzero and the difference was night and day.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by DTP1980

There is a notable amount of slap-dash advice being given here. Plenty of 'solutions' to a straight line traction problem, but no consideration to the effect of handling, ride comfort, noise levels, cost, effect on insurance. E.g., larger rear tyres will increase a cars likelyhood of understeer. Also, with wider tyres comes a marked increased risk of aqua (hydro) -planing, in a country which is a large island, and wet for considerable portions of the year. BMW invests millions in ensuring best all round performance.

And unless you have access to some serious time, effort and someone with years of experience, altering the tracking setup could leave you in a heap of trouble when that minor alteration doesn't favour a certain set of road conditions.

Tyre quality diminishes over time, not just through wear, but degradation of rubber caused by heat stress and UV etc. You are right, the 4S replaces the MPSS and is the wisest upgrade suggested here.

Also, check your driving style. I can't comment on yours of course, but I find there is plenty of chassis feedback to tell when i'm pressing on the accelerator too fast, and therefore to back off a touch and keep wheelspin at bay, without losing the performance the car is capable of. No hot hatch has ever shown me a clean pair of heels.

Here here! Listen to this man.

Properly driven, a RWD F10 M5 can still provide superior traction. Besides if we think back to the old days of Formula 1, were any of those cars AWD? It was always superior driving skill that won the race.

I ran the P-Zero's for a while (305's) and while not bad for traction the PS4 is a much better tire. Plus I barely got 10,000 miles out of the P-Zero's, terrible.

Knowing how to extract the maximum performance of a RWD car with lots of torque is part of the fun and challenge of driving such a car. I've been driving it for almost 6 years now and I have still yet to Master the art.

[Dwaynos]

Ok so, I have a few questions that should be easy to answer,

I'm looking at the Michelin 4s tyres.

I have standard 20" m5 wheels. 305s or 295s?

Will I need spacers to use 305s?

Should I alter the rear camber?

I'm not trying to compare f1 to my m5, those cars were almost identical, the only dfference is really the driver. When I'm going against a 4wd hot hatch it makes the m5 look pathetic, they don't know I'm losing traction, you have to agree with me here, non of us want the m5 to look pathetic on the roads do we? even if we win they will still think they were very close to the almighty Big M.

[DTP1980]

Originally Posted by M5 TT

Yup, but with your attitude nothing ever progresses. If you are happy with your car then that's fine. I wanted to try other things and as far as I am concerned that is fine to. Unless you have evidence that what people have done has a negative effect its just word with no evidence to back it up. So far with my set up I feel nothing negative only positive. That maybe different on a track but I will never be on a track so no problem for me.

BMW spent millions getting 560bhp out of the car ensuring best all round performance but who cares 700 is way better

I don’t think I have an attitude problem with this matter. I have attempted to guide our fellow member based on information they have given by providing further important information to consider rather than pushing him down a set route, which up to that point was very narrow.

The approach from people is to assume that BMW are somehow wrong, so the answer often seems to be to throw money at the problem rather than looking at it objectively and in a manner that gets to the source of the problem.

The problem described is rarely read on these forums, so we have to assume there are some unknown factors here, which I have tried to address in part.

I don’t believe he said it was tuned, so my approach was to assume not.

We are also assuming there isn’t a technical problem because one hasn’t been indicated. A quirky diff or throttle issue could easily be considered.

Read some books. Altering rear camber towards zero alone will increase understeer because rear grip increases, thus overpowering front grip. This will be quite notable in damp/ wet conditions. In a non AWD M car especially, this is not favourable. And as the camber is set by the highly experienced and qualified technicians at BMW M, I bet almost no-one on this forum is qualified to argue with their setup. Logically, it would come from the factory that way otherwise.

Making tyres wider than default will increase the contact patch which will increase a vehicles tendency to aqua plane. Water skis aren’t narrow, they are fat and wide. This is a simple matter of physics.

Neither did I say that I was against progress or advancing our machinery to meet our goals. I’ve owned tens of cars and enhanced them all in one way or another to my advantage, based on years of reading and learning, not just by mindlessly following the other sheep.

[Dwaynos]

Not tuned as far as I'm aware. No technical issues just too much power for the tyres. The tyres I have fitted are bmw specific. Some people say that the MO1 spec tyres for the sl65 amg are better, can anybody comment on this?

[M eyedoc]

Thought I would give an opinion as we all seem to have one. First I want to establish that I mean no disrespect to anyone in anyway.* As a track instructor I have seen things like this many times.* We have all seen people on TV that use the right petal as an on-off switch, so we think we should be able to do the same. But in reality, this is not possible in a high horsepower car like ours without traction control.** Like a post about said, the old F1 cars had more power and no TC.* The drivers had to finesse the power to get the most speed.* I have tracked my M5 and always without any TC. With proper modulation our cars are as capable coming out of a slow tight turn onto a straight as any 911 out there.* Same concept holds true on the street.* It is easy to drive a lower HP car, just mash the petal and go. Takes a bit more skill do drive a faster car.* Just my thoughts...

[Yay-Z]

M5 is more about steering, suspension and adjustability. It's a great car for everyday driving.

At least the CP version is.

[DTP1980]

Originally Posted by Dwaynos

Not tuned as far as I'm aware. No technical issues just too much power for the tyres. The tyres I have fitted are bmw specific. Some people say that the MO1 spec tyres for the sl65 amg are better, can anybody comment on this?

MO1 is a Mercedes fitment.

I know there is a debate about the difference between the various manufacturer approved tyres (BMW’s being the star sign, of you’re not sure). My tyre supplier boss is adamant that the tyre manufacturers alter the tyres, especially the mounting edges, differently for each tyre, albeit only slightly.

Michelin do make the 4S in a none car manufacturer approved size, and last time I checked there wasn’t a BMW star approved tyre.

For reference, my local shop where I get all my work done quoted me £1k fitted all round for these tyres. My recomendation is you try these.

Also, whatever tyres you get, they require running in for a couple of hundred miles, so don’t be shocked that they can’t immediately take the power. As a powerful motorbike rider, I can’t emphasise this enough.

[Dwaynos]

Yes you are correct when you say that the 4s is not available in bmw fitment. There does appear to be a difference between the MO1 and the generic fitment tyre. If I recall correctly the generic is C, A, 73db and the MO1 is E, B, 73db. I know the generic seems like the obvious choice but there must he a difference for a reason. I won't be going crazy in the wet so dry traction is my priority. These ratings are for the 295 width.

Which would you recommend?

[Stur32]

Dwaynos,

MPS4’s are better but I don’t think they will give you the mind blowing traction you may be expecting. The solution may be a lot cheaper! At the moment in the UK we are seeing record high temperatures and it will be playing havoc with your tyre pressures. A friend asked me yesterday “how in the world could I drive an M5 when his M2 has been lighting the rears up at any more than a real light right foot”? It’s tyre pressure. The F10 is very sensitive to tyre pressures without the massive variations in UK road and air temps.

[Dwaynos]

What tyre pressure do you recommend I run?

It's not that I'm expecting mind blowing traction, I like the fact that I have enough power to spin the wheels at 50mph but I would also like for that not to happen, if that makes sense.

[TLK]

FWIW I had frequent traction and hunting in spirited street driving until a nail forced me to change stock rear tires on the CP 20" rims to MPS4s, and this improved things a lot.

You do have to modulate of course, same as any higher horsepower car, unless you just want to sit there sanding down your tires.

[dsmclark]

Originally Posted by Dwaynos

Ok so, I have a few questions that should be easy to answer,

I'm looking at the Michelin 4s tyres.

I have standard 20" m5 wheels. 305s or 295s?

Will I need spacers to use 305s?

Should I alter the rear camber?

I'm not trying to compare f1 to my m5, those cars were almost identical, the only dfference is really the driver. When I'm going against a 4wd hot hatch it makes the m5 look pathetic, they don't know I'm losing traction, you have to agree with me here, non of us want the m5 to look pathetic on the roads do we? even if we win they will still think they were very close to the almighty Big M.

If you are comparing it to the Golf R then those things are pretty quick so they are bound to be close with the 4wd! and if they have tuned it then even more so! don't forget the M5 is a big heavy 4 door as well my traction control pretty much always goes ape shit at me but it can still grip and shift when I want it too. I came from audi's S6 and before that an S4 and you could floor it into corners and come flying out the other side (more so in the S4, that V10 was heavy in the s6).

How long have you had the M5?

[Dwaynos]

I've only had it 7 weeks. I do know that the golf r is fast. I love the m5 and that s the reason I don't want 17 year old kids to think they blasted me in something half the value. I can't stand it when people pipe up and say I'm just as fast for half the money.

I'm definitely going to go for the Michelin 4s when my tyres are ready for a change. I'm still trying to find more info about the 305 fitment though. Anyone?

[dsmclark]

Originally Posted by Dwaynos

I've only had it 7 weeks. I do know that the golf r is fast. I love the m5 and that s the reason I don't want 17 year old kids to think they blasted me in something half the value. I can't stand it when people pipe up and say I'm just as fast for half the money.

I'm definitely going to go for the Michelin 4s when my tyres are ready for a change. I'm still trying to find more info about the 305 fitment though. Anyone?

I hear they do fit on the stock wheels the 305s, its only 10mm difference so only 5mm each side, so I don't think you'll require spacers. I was going to go for them but not sure about them on 19's and was thinking of going for some after market wheels in an 11J rear next time I need new tyres.

I know what you mean about the kids in the hot hatches. had a 330e trying to keep up with me this morning on the motorway! I usually run a stage 1 tune on mine and it makes a world of difference (did have the stage 2 on but had to fit the cats back on for MOT) but I took the tune off as its going for an oil service at BMW tomorrow so didn't pull away as quickly as I usually would have. Also before I over take I normally drop it down a gear so I am already in the power band. With the stage 2 tune I had the traction control kick in at 120mph when I put my foot down when a supercharge range rover sport wanted to have a go! that was on the autobahn of course....

try driving it on MDM for a while if you haven't already! I found it helped me build confidence to really boot it and throw it into corners more as with traction fully on if you put your foot down too much then it tends to bog alot which is probably what you're experiencing