Flash TUNE - Dyno Inside - Help

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

Sound advise, especially since you've ruled out vacuum issues, running new plugs, no codes being thrown, and I'm assuming the car runs fine??

The car runs just fine... No codes, no problems. Im thinking of somehow logging the pressure from the HPFP (dont know how to do this yet) see if it has to do anything with the amount of fuel being delivered (correct psi).

Could it be that my Plugs are gapped to tight (.019)? Does this have anything to do with Power/AFR?

[apexlocator]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

The car runs just fine... No codes, no problems. Im thinking of somehow logging the pressure from the HPFP (dont know how to do this yet) see if it has to do anything with the amount of fuel being delivered (correct psi).

Could it be that my Plugs are gapped to tight (.019)? Does this have anything to do with Power/AFR?

I believe Torque Pro (with my OBDlink MX) I was able to see fuel pressure readings. However, I did not log that value; I was just browsing through which parameters were being read in realtime.

My plugs are gapped to 0.022, and I'm running BMW 550 plugs.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

I believe Torque Pro (with my OBDlink MX) I was able to see fuel pressure readings. However, I did not log that value; I was just browsing through which parameters were being read in realtime.

My plugs are gapped to 0.022, and I'm running BMW 550 plugs.

I did that as well. Went into Torque Pro, and opened up "realtime info" and selected fuel pressure as one of the gauges, but nothing shows up. Everythign else reads fine, but fuel pressure does not work. Whenever you get a second, can you please check if it reads it? thanks man.

So pluggs gapped to .022.... HMM. Wondering if my gap is too tight at .019.

[allmotor_2000]

We have not been able to read LPFP values (for whatever reason)... although HPFP is readable!

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

We have not been able to read LPFP values (for whatever reason)... although HPFP is readable!

How can I read HPFP?

[allmotor_2000]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

How can I read HPFP?

JB4, INPA... etc.

[epiphanyray]

thanks ALLMOTOR....

in another note.. Im looking at logs for my most recent pull un 3rd gear from 1600-6700rpm. AM I crazy or whenever i see "TARGET" whether its boost target, lambda target etc isnt that what the DME asks engine to do?

So for example, if the car says LAMBDA TARGET of 1 (which is 14.7 afr) for a certain RPM - doesnt this mean that the DMES are asking the car to provide the right mix of fuel and air to get to 14.7AFR - which seems to be so damn lean. Because I see in this image that the car is pretty much always asking for lambda of 1 or .99 which is pretty close to 14.7 until it reaches around 5000-5300 rpm where it requests lambda of .93 which is about 13.67 AFR.

This is the STOCK flash/fuel maps on my car, but it seems the car is doing EXACTLY what the DMEs are asking. If I am running lean, wouldn't new fuel mapping via tuning/flash change these targets to more appropriate ones and as a result wouldn't I get ACTUAL AFR thats safer/more powerful close to 12.1-13 AFR?

my car has the first firmware, and has never been updated with more recent software.

Just thinking out loud here. Am I completely wrong?

[BPMSport]

Direct injection cars usually run much leaner than with conventional injection. OEMs often target near lambda in stock software to increase efficiency. With more boost and or timing, a richer fuel mixture will keep temperatures down and help resist detonation.

I always run extra rich for safety.

[apexlocator]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

I did that as well. Went into Torque Pro, and opened up "realtime info" and selected fuel pressure as one of the gauges, but nothing shows up. Everythign else reads fine, but fuel pressure does not work. Whenever you get a second, can you please check if it reads it? thanks man.

So pluggs gapped to .022.... HMM. Wondering if my gap is too tight at .019.

So its actually fuel rail pressure, in psi, that Torque pro can read for our cars.....not sure if that can be converted to what's seen at the HPFPs.

If the tuner recommended your plug gaps be 0.019, then go with that. I was recommended 0.022 over a year ago without issue.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Direct injection cars usually run much leaner than with conventional injection. OEMs often target near lambda in stock software to increase efficiency. With more boost and or timing, a richer fuel mixture will keep temperatures down and help resist detonation.

I always run extra rich for safety.

Thanks Mike. Would custom tuning and fuel trim adjustments (richer lambda targets) to make afr richer result in more power, safety and reliability?

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

So its actually fuel rail pressure, in psi, that Torque pro can read for our cars.....not sure if that can be converted to what's seen at the HPFPs.

If the tuner recommended your plug gaps be 0.019, then go with that. I was recommended 0.022 over a year ago without issue.

Thanks, i will try that!

[edysinger]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

thanks ALLMOTOR....

in another note.. Im looking at logs for my most recent pull un 3rd gear from 1600-6700rpm. AM I crazy or whenever i see "TARGET" whether its boost target, lambda target etc isnt that what the DME asks engine to do?

So for example, if the car says LAMBDA TARGET of 1 (which is 14.7 afr) for a certain RPM - doesnt this mean that the DMES are asking the car to provide the right mix of fuel and air to get to 14.7AFR - which seems to be so damn lean. Because I see in this image that the car is pretty much always asking for lambda of 1 or .99 which is pretty close to 14.7 until it reaches around 5000-5300 rpm where it requests lambda of .93 which is about 13.67 AFR.

This is the STOCK flash/fuel maps on my car, but it seems the car is doing EXACTLY what the DMEs are asking. If I am running lean, wouldn't new fuel mapping via tuning/flash change these targets to more appropriate ones and as a result wouldn't I get ACTUAL AFR thats safer/more powerful close to 12.1-13 AFR?

my car has the first firmware, and has never been updated with more recent software.

Just thinking out loud here. Am I completely wrong?

14.7 is not so damn lean by any means under peak torque. It is normal for the engine to command and run at that air/fuel mixture. Once you get above peak torque the DME will command a richer mixture to start controlling cylinder temps and other things it would take me too long to post.

Yes, the target is the demand of the DME. The Lambda is the measured values read from the sensors. So your engine is doing what it is commanded. If you need another way to verify to make your feel more confident, install an lambda sensor in your exhaust system to verify.

The dyno graph you posted from another site showing a stock M5 is the Air/Fuel ratio what I consider normal for just about every car on the road. 14.7 to 1 up to peak torque and then blending in more fuel.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by edysinger

14.7 is not so damn lean by any means under peak torque. It is normal for the engine to command and run at that air/fuel mixture. Once you get above peak torque the DME will command a richer mixture to start controlling cylinder temps and other things it would take me too long to post.

Yes, the target is the demand of the DME. The Lambda is the measured values read from the sensors. So your engine is doing what it is commanded. If you need another way to verify to make your feel more confident, install an lambda sensor in your exhaust system to verify.

The dyno graph you posted from another site showing a stock M5 is the Air/Fuel ratio what I consider normal for just about every car on the road. 14.7 to 1 up to peak torque and then blending in more fuel.

Totally agree. I did 2 pulls against another M5 last night. One in second gear, and one in third gear. Granted he had jb4 (on map 0 for stock) and he has full eisenmann exhaust, downpipes and intake. Second gear he jumped ahead from 35mph. we both went WOT until 3rd gear, and he won be 1.5-2 car lengths.

I thought this would happen considering his hardware which easily puts him maybe 30-40 hp more than me.

Then came the real surprise...

we did the same pull in 3rd gear from about 45 all the way to 4th gear, and we were Dead even. DEAD EVEN. not even a foot difference. He logged the run with his jb4, and his AFR was also in 14s, and then it dipped to 13s. Overall he is about half a point to a point below MY AFR. im wondering if he runs richer because of his bolt ons.

Overall, I was pretty darn happy I was able to keep up with him in 3rd gear. maybe my car is running alright after all...

Next up is re flash my car and possibly have tuner custom tune the car and fuel trims.

Question (same one I asked BPMSport - If my car is custom tuned (targets/fuel trim) to come down to mid 12s AFR, will my car gain some power and operate safer?

[edysinger]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

Totally agree. I did 2 pulls against another M5 last night. One in second gear, and one in third gear. Granted he had jb4 (on map 0 for stock) and he has full eisenmann exhaust, downpipes and intake. Second gear he jumped ahead from 35mph. we both went WOT until 3rd gear, and he won be 1.5-2 car lengths.

I thought this would happen considering his hardware which easily puts him maybe 30-40 hp more than me.

Then came the real surprise...

we did the same pull in 3rd gear from about 45 all the way to 4th gear, and we were Dead even. DEAD EVEN. not even a foot difference. He logged the run with his jb4, and his AFR was also in 14s, and then it dipped to 13s. Overall he is about half a point to a point below MY AFR. im wondering if he runs richer because of his bolt ons.

Overall, I was pretty darn happy I was able to keep up with him in 3rd gear. maybe my car is running alright after all...

Next up is re flash my car and possibly have tuner custom tune the car and fuel trims.

Question (same one I asked BPMSport - If my car is custom tuned (targets/fuel trim) to come down to mid 12s AFR, will my car gain some power and operate safer?

Safer, yes. More power, maybe. It depends if the tune is adding more spark with richer AFRs or based on the combustion chamber/piston design if this is ideal with a lower AFR. I doubt it as most modern engines (direct injection) I have calibrated (OEM and aftermarket) are good in a 12.8 to 13.2 range. In addition, BMW would target a lower/safer AFR if it produced more power while staying safer, imo. If you start moving lower than 12.8 AFR, you will likely lose some power as you are getting out of the ideal range.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by edysinger

Safer, yes. More power, maybe. It depends if the tune is adding more spark with richer AFRs or based on the combustion chamber/piston design if this is ideal with a lower AFR. I doubt it as most modern engines (direct injection) I have calibrated (OEM and aftermarket) are good in a 12.8 to 13.2 range. In addition, BMW would target a lower/safer AFR if it produced more power while staying safer, imo. If you start moving lower than 12.8 AFR, you will likely lose some power as you are getting out of the ideal range.

Thank you @Edysinger I spoke to tuner, and they have been really diligent in helping me get this solved. He told me that after reviewing logs, the car is failing to achieve boost at low levels. My target boost is a few 100hpa under the target.

He also mentioned that since my driver side turbo has oil in it, I need to remove intake to the turbo and see if there is any movement in the turbo wheel. Also said that BLOCKED Cats can easily cause that as well and I should consider running Catless to see if that helps. If the cats are in bad shape, it restricts airflow and put extra load on the turbo thrust bearings and start wearing out the seals. I will remove intake and inspect.

I will follow Mike Benvos advice and check/replace PCV hose on driver side (oily turbo is on driver's side).

I just purchased a set of MSR downpipes, and hopefully we shall get to the bottom of this.

Thanks guys, will report back. If any more comments or suggestions, please fire away!

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by edysinger

14.7 is not so damn lean by any means under peak torque. It is normal for the engine to command and run at that air/fuel mixture. Once you get above peak torque the DME will command a richer mixture to start controlling cylinder temps and other things it would take me too long to post.

Going to have to disagree here... 14.7 may not be lean for a stock car with direct injection, but it's certainly lean for a number of cars, especially without direct injection.

Take for instance the E9x M3 with the S65 V8, it's commanding around 13.65 up to 5K and then tapers down to 12.5.

14.7 is the target in most part throttle scenarios, but not always at WOT, and definitely not with additional boost afforded by a tune. DI cars will try to be at lambda as much as possible because they can be - the injection event is much more precise and controllable.

Here's an AFR snippet of a dyno a customer sent us last week.. In one of the runs made a whopping 756 wheel torque (STD Correction). Take a look at the AFR in the picture below. This is what I would consider a beautiful one

Running a richer target is particularly important on a forced induction application particularly because of the denser mixture, which raises peak cylinder pressure and temperatures, increasing the propensity for knock. This is more true on a tuned forced induction car because the boost levels are higher. The richer mixture will keep the cylinder temperatures lower and reduce knock.

Will it make the most power with an extra rich mixture? No. It's more about finding a balance between power and safety.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Going to have to disagree here... 14.7 may not be lean for a stock car with direct injection, but it's certainly lean for a number of cars, especially without direct injection.

Take for instance the E9x M3 with the S65 V8, it's commanding around 13.65 up to 5K and then tapers down to 12.5.

14.7 is the target in most part throttle scenarios, but not always at WOT, and definitely not with additional boost afforded by a tune. DI cars will try to be at lambda as much as possible because they can be - the injection event is much more precise and controllable.

Here's an AFR snippet of a dyno a customer sent us last week.. In one of the runs made a whopping 756 wheel torque (STD Correction). Take a look at the AFR in the picture below. This is what I would consider a beautiful one

Running a richer target is particularly important on a forced induction application particularly because of the denser mixture, which raises peak cylinder pressure and temperatures, increasing the propensity for knock. This is more true on a tuned forced induction car because the boost levels are higher. The richer mixture will keep the cylinder temperatures lower and reduce knock.

Will it make the most power with an extra rich mixture? No. It's more about finding a balance between power and safety.

thanks for the explanation. Will report back when I take off intake and check turbo oil issue.

[allmotor_2000]

Stock maps run close to 14.7 until around 5K and then it drops to mid/high 12’s. There may be maps in the car that target AFR to 14 through redline but some other sensor has to be off to trigger that condition.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

Stock maps run close to 14.7 until around 5K and then it drops to mid/high 12’s. There may be maps in the car that target AFR to 14 through redline but some other sensor has to be off to trigger that condition.

I will know more soon! I just got the Catless Downpipes today and once im in there, I will check that driver side turbo... Check out a little video that shows the oil in that turbo.

That may be a good indication of poor performance/boost levels.

What do you guys think could be causing oil in turbo? I will replace PCV Valve/hose just like Mike said, anything else?

[allmotor_2000]

The only source of oil into that turbo is the PCV... why not just clean it up... unplug the PCV and drive around. Then check if there is oil. No issue in driving with PCV unplugged (its an emission thing...)

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

The only source of oil into that turbo is the PCV... why not just clean it up... unplug the PCV and drive around. Then check if there is oil. No issue in driving with PCV unplugged (its an emission thing...)

Good idea. So PCV hose is the only source of oil into the turbo.. Will that oil in the turbo affect performance of THAT turbo?

[allmotor_2000]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

Good idea. So PCV hose is the only source of oil into the turbo.. Will that oil in the turbo affect performance of THAT turbo?

There is nothing else connected there unless the turbo seal itself is leaking, but it won't show up on the compressor inlet. Little oil won't affect the turbo performance. It could be the wastegate needs adjustment. Is boost balanced between banks?

Note this is a cross-bank manifold design, so if you are way low on boost on one side, it actually affects both banks in terms of AFR.