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      05-16-2021, 05:11 PM   #111
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Ok, dumb question, DAS moves the tires and surely affects aerodynamics of the car. Why is the effect of this system not ruled as creating a moveable aerodynamic device?

Best uneducated guess, because the wheels and tires are unsprung weight

Cue the smart person, GO

First to answer gets a prize.
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      05-16-2021, 05:21 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
ok mate Lewis cant drive..
I "never said HAM can't drive his Merc !

Honestly mate , listen :
Don't you think HAM got more advantage from exceeding 29 times the track limits than MAX with the stupid RB wing ?

Or pushed a stupid wing HAM to his 7 x Championships ?
I don't think so...
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      05-16-2021, 05:48 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killed by Death View Post
Ok, dumb question, DAS moves the tires and surely affects aerodynamics of the car. Why is the effect of this system not ruled as creating a moveable aerodynamic device?

Best uneducated guess, because the wheels and tires are unsprung weight

Cue the smart person, GO

First to answer gets a prize.
DAS isn't a moveable aerodynamic device as it only changes the toe with the goal of affecting tire temperature.
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      05-16-2021, 05:58 PM   #114
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Still seems like standing the tire more upright would change the aerodynamics ever so slightly. But answer accepted. What was the last prize I gave you? Whatever it was you can double it
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      05-16-2021, 06:08 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killed by Death View Post
Still seems like standing the tire more upright would change the aerodynamics ever so slightly. But answer accepted. What was the last prize I gave you? Whatever it was you can double it
with that approach.. turning the steering wheel should break the regulations as well..
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      05-16-2021, 06:12 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Killed by Death View Post
Still seems like standing the tire more upright would change the aerodynamics ever so slightly. But answer accepted. What was the last prize I gave you? Whatever it was you can double it
Thank you, sir!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
with that approach.. turning the steering wheel should break the regulations as well..
Spot on!!
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      05-16-2021, 06:13 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
with that approach.. turning the steering wheel should break the regulations as well..
Well, that's true...hence my stupid question warning
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      05-16-2021, 06:15 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Killed by Death View Post
Well, that's true...hence my stupid question warning
There are no stupid questions...F1 is complex and NO One knows it all.
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      05-17-2021, 03:10 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Fun article.
Sadly I'm stuck with this stupid sense of morality.
I'm guessing life is a lot easier if a persons sense of morality is a little fuzzy.

I loved watching Usain Bolt winning those 100m races..there was something magical about it.
If it ever turns out he cheated in some way then that would be really quite sad...same goes for Mercedes and their F1 wins and championships.

In the case of Red Bull, you expect them to be cheating, thats just the sort of team they are....the people who run the team set the standard.

Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 05-17-2021 at 03:21 AM..
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      05-17-2021, 03:31 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
I "never said HAM can't drive his Merc !

Honestly mate , listen :
Don't you think HAM got more advantage from exceeding 29 times the track limits than MAX with the stupid RB wing ?

Or pushed a stupid wing HAM to his 7 x Championships ?
I don't think so...
No shortage of HAM altar boys then,'it's just because he drives it like that' they believe.Clueless boys more like.

Last edited by M5Rick; 05-17-2021 at 03:51 AM..
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      05-17-2021, 06:51 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
No shortage of HAM altar boys then,'it's just because he drives it like that' they believe.Clueless boys more like.
Titles in their first 6 years in F1

VER - 0
HAM - 1

Total Pole Positions in their first 6 years in F1

VER - 4
HAM - 26 (4 in 2009 in the 6th fastest car on the grid)

The Clueless boys are supporting VER as being better than Sir Lewis. On more hardcore F1 sites that I participate in, the VER fanboys are starting to see the truth and are stepping back from their position that VER is better since he is 1 win in 4 and 1 pole position in a faster and more stable car.
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      05-17-2021, 07:36 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Do you think that finding a way to sneak answers into a proctored test is good thinking or cheating?

Do you think that the VW emissions test mode program was cheating?

Seriously. I'm asking you to answer these in light of your view on RBR.
Good question. So I guess I would need to dig into this much more and read the actual regulation to answer this more completely, but until then Ill give you this.

RBR seems to have created a feature that passes the test and provides and advantage in a sport where you are trying to outcompete against other teams by engineering things to the finest of margins.

VW created a specific cheat mechanism to allow the SAE/EPA testing to get a false result. This has negative impacts on the environment and the customers that bought these cars expecting something different. Ill add that I work in the auto-industry so I do understand the drive to also outcompete with your competition among other automakers.

So in my mind, they are different situations, but I understand how you are drawing comparisons.
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      05-17-2021, 07:42 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Titles in their first 6 years in F1

VER - 0
HAM - 1

Total Pole Positions in their first 6 years in F1

VER - 4
HAM - 26 (4 in 2009 in the 6th fastest car on the grid)

The Clueless boys are supporting VER as being better than Sir Lewis. On more hardcore F1 sites that I participate in, the VER fanboys are starting to see the truth and are stepping back from their position that VER is better since he is 1 win in 4 and 1 pole position in a faster and more stable car.
I can't see them being proper fans where a few are supposedly changing their spots in a New York minute with RB being so close to Merc now
That does not make sense.
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      05-17-2021, 07:52 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngilbe36 View Post
Good question. So I guess I would need to dig into this much more and read the actual regulation to answer this more completely, but until then Ill give you this.

RBR seems to have created a feature that passes the test and provides and advantage in a sport where you are trying to outcompete against other teams by engineering things to the finest of margins.

VW created a specific cheat mechanism to allow the SAE/EPA testing to get a false result. This has negative impacts on the environment and the customers that bought these cars expecting something different. Ill add that I work in the auto-industry so I do understand the drive to also outcompete with your competition among other automakers.

So in my mind, they are different situations, but I understand how you are drawing comparisons.
Go and read the rule. Passing the test, which in inadequate, doesn't mean you are in compliance.

Their wing must remain rigid in relation to the sprung bodywork.

It does not, in situ.

This is a rules violation. The test doesn't matter.

Edit: This is perfectly congruent with VW. They designed a cheat to pass the emissions test but return to pollution mode at speed. RBR designed a wing to pass the static load test but flex at speed. Notice the similarities?
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Last edited by MKSixer; 05-17-2021 at 07:58 AM..
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      05-17-2021, 07:56 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
I can't see them being proper fans where a few are supposedly changing their spots in a New York minute with RB being so close to Merc now
That does not make sense.
Because the RBR is faster and VER has only achieved only 1 pole position and 1 win.

If VER is so great, why isn't he wiping the floor with Sir Lewis?

He has every element that is necessary to win...even down to an illegal car. And still he cannot manage more than 1 win and 1 pole position.

A 25% success rate with the fastest car and the alleged best driver. Care to explain?
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      05-17-2021, 08:17 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Because the RBR is faster and VER has only achieved only 1 pole position and 1 win.

If VER is so great, why isn't he wiping the floor with Sir Lewis?

He has every element that is necessary to win...even down to an illegal car. And still he cannot manage more than 1 win and 1 pole position.

A 25% success rate with the fastest car and the alleged best driver. Care to explain?
It's simple, Merc is adding more as RB gets closer.
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      05-17-2021, 08:19 AM   #127
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It's simple, Merc is adding more as RB gets closer.
LOL! And the first race?
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      05-17-2021, 08:23 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
LOL! And the first race?
Without back up Max is ALSO battling a two Merc driver strategy giving more options to HAM.
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      05-17-2021, 08:24 AM   #129
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Wow.
So other teams who might have scored more constructors points (along with the $millions that brings) if Red Bull hadn't been cheating...you thing they are equally impressed by Red Bulls "engineering"?
And if Red Bull have the moral duplicity to cheat at one aspect of their cars design then why wouldn't they cheat at others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Go and read the rule. Passing the test, which in inadequate, doesn't mean you are in compliance.

Their wing must remain rigid in relation to the sprung bodywork.

It does not, in situ.

This is a rules violation. The test doesn't matter.

Edit: This is perfectly congruent with VW. They designed a cheat to pass the emissions test but return to pollution mode at speed. RBR designed a wing to pass the static load test but flex at speed. Notice the similarities?
I went through the regs and found this wording and am changing my answer.
"Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom)."
As MK said. It has no call out for passing a test, the wording is extremely clear that there must be no deflection. So yeah, RBR is cheating. Its not cool like I initially thought before reading the regs.

Another note though. It seems very odd to use the wording "rigidly secure" and "Not having degree of freedom"

That is much too absolute for the real world IMO. Its almost impossible to make any joint or feature experiencing as much force as that rear wing not deflect or rotate at all. I am willing to bet the Merc and every other car also moves, just not as much. I think they should amend the reg to say, "with a 1200kg load in -Z or +X there shall be only 2mm of deflection" or something like that. That is how most automotive industry regulations are. Thoughts?
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      05-17-2021, 08:56 AM   #130
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This from last year

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      05-17-2021, 09:06 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngilbe36 View Post
That is much too absolute for the real world IMO. Its almost impossible to make any joint or feature experiencing as much force as that rear wing not deflect or rotate at all. I am willing to bet the Merc and every other car also moves, just not as much.
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      05-17-2021, 09:12 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngilbe36 View Post
I went through the regs and found this wording and am changing my answer.
"Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom)."
As MK said. It has no call out for passing a test, the wording is extremely clear that there must be no deflection. So yeah, RBR is cheating. Its not cool like I initially thought before reading the regs.

Another note though. It seems very odd to use the wording "rigidly secure" and "Not having degree of freedom"

That is much too absolute for the real world IMO. Its almost impossible to make any joint or feature experiencing as much force as that rear wing not deflect or rotate at all. I am willing to bet the Merc and every other car also moves, just not as much. I think they should amend the reg to say, "with a 1200kg load in -Z or +X there shall be only 2mm of deflection" or something like that. That is how most automotive industry regulations are. Thoughts?
Thanks! You are the kind of F1 fan I absolutely love! Performs research and seeks additional knowledge.

This is a simple thing to see and, like in all things human, there has to be a degree of freedom.

That said, the car must comply with the rules and that MUST be proven to the FIA by THE TEAM!! This is one of the reasons I respect Merc with the DAS situation. They got approval from the FIA and ran the device.

Apparently RBR has been doing this since last year and is being called out for it. They have a history of this exact malfeasance. That is the reason I'm a little vexed about it.
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