M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > F10 M5 Forum > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-20-2020, 09:53 AM   #1
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

BM3 Recommended Live Monitoring Parameters

Coming from a Cobb tuning platform, I'd like to learn a bit more about recommended live-monitoring channels/parameters using the BM3 interface. Even on a stock tune, I think having the ability to monitor for knock events, fueling issues, or AFRs is super important and helpful - especially on such a high-performance car.

I've read the user manual and searched this forum, but didn't find much.

I used to pay close attention to several live monitors on a completely different car to make sure all my numbers were within good ranges, especially at WOT. But I have no idea what those ranges are for a 2013 BMW M5.

What do you guys live-monitor with your BM3, or other interfaces? And what are the acceptable ranges for the monitors you look at?

Thanks!
Appreciate 0
      05-21-2020, 11:01 AM   #2
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Bump. I think the below values/factors are some of the things to look out for...

- Lamda (AFR) needs to be around 12 at WOT. (14.7 is stoich where all the fuel is used.)
- Knock Detection should be as close to zero as possible and not appear at WOT.
- Knock Detection followed by major timing pulls is really bad.
- Knock Voltages (for two sensors) should be monitored to look for hidden knock events.
- Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) should be around 1.0, which means the fueling is perfect. 0.7 would indicate fuel is being cut while 1.3 means fuel is being added to meet the target AFR.
- Ignition timing values should be small. A lot of different timing values with large adjustments across the four banks could indicate pulled timing to prevent detonation.

Note: There appears to be some disagreement on the ignition timing values. Some say timing adjustments should be no more than 2-3 degrees at WOT for a well-tuned and mechanically sound car, and all four banks should be the same. Others say not to worry about the banks having different timing adjustments at WOT because that shows the DME maximizes power while controlling timing across the individual banks separately. In other words, ignition timing values of 3.0 across all banks provides a pretty log, but means you are leaving some performance on the table.

What else should we monitor for knock or other conditions that can be catastrophic?
Appreciate 0
      05-30-2020, 03:56 PM   #3
sly1types
Captain
427
Rep
934
Posts

Drives: F80M3 and E46M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: KC

iTrader: (0)

These are direct injected, so they run super lean, like usually in the 13's. 12s-14s are common depending on fuel and level of tune. Look for any large timing pulls. Knock should be at 0, if not you have a an issue. Then look at STFT, short term fueling trims below 1.0 and the ECM is pulling out fuel, greater that 1.0 is adding fuel, I think it maxes at 1.2. Also make sure you are pretty close to your boost target.
__________________
F80 M3-DCT MaxPSI CH, BM3 with F80 Paul E85 and Custom Rom track tune MCS 2Way Remotes
Signature SV104
E46 M3
F85 X5M
https://www.instagram.com/fastmacm3/
Appreciate 0
      05-30-2020, 05:10 PM   #4
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sly1types View Post
These are direct injected, so they run super lean, like usually in the 13's. 12s-14s are common depending on fuel and level of tune. Look for any large timing pulls. Knock should be at 0, if not you have a an issue. Then look at STFT, short term fueling trims below 1.0 and the ECM is pulling out fuel, greater that 1.0 is adding fuel, I think it maxes at 1.2. Also make sure you are pretty close to your boost target.
Awesome information. Thank you!

How would bad pulled timing look? Just a sharp decrease at WOT?
Appreciate 0
      05-30-2020, 08:38 PM   #5
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Posted in another forum but repeating here since I started the thread.


Got the spreadsheets to download using a computer instead of my phone. I formatted them to keep the column labels frozen and also highlighted in yellow where the accelerator pedal was 100% (WOT).

This is the STOCK map on Efficient and there seem to be some red flags.

(1) A couple knock events during WOT. Could these may be false knock based on the short duration and inconsistent occurrences?

(2) High boost target and pressure. Why is the DME targeting boost pressure in the 28+ psi range in some cases while the pre-throttle boost often hits 26+ psi? This seems really abnormal for a stock car with the only mod being a Meisterschaft catback exhaust unless the readings are wrong. I thought the stock max boost is 22 psi or so...

[Update: I believe you subtract 14.7 (standard atmospheric pressure) from the datalog boost pressure numbers. 30 psi Boost (Pre-Throttle) is really only about 15.3 psi of boost.]

(3) WDC occasionally gets maxed out at 100%. Not much overhead.

(4) The car is pretty lean at WOT. AFR is around 14.7 in most cases, but ranges between 13-16 across these five datalogs.

Here are the logs. My car is has the DCT transmission so I ran the logs mostly in 4th gear. See if you can spot any other issues.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q_j...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nEE...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ifP...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KPC...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iXM...w?usp=drivesdk
Appreciate 1
      06-01-2020, 08:59 PM   #6
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Additional logs from today. Finally got on the highways.

STOCK map observations:
- AFRs are quite lean (14-16) even at WOT, but the stock map is designed to burn as much fuel as possible.
- I'm getting one or two knock events on every log, most often on part throttle. Spark knock? Need new plugs and O2 sensors?
- Ignition Timing 1 thru 4 are about the same in low throttle, but quite different at higher throttle.
- Seeing some negative timing values at higher throttle applications.

Efficient throttle:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tuX...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y1g...w?usp=drivesdk

Sport throttle:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HPt...w?usp=drivesdk

Sport Plus throttle:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tDD...w?usp=drivesdk
Appreciate 0
      06-02-2020, 09:53 PM   #7
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Thought I'd give the BM3 OTS Stage 1 93 octane map a try. The DME hasn't fully adjusted yet with only 13 miles, so I'm closely monitoring the Dashboard and Auto-Datalogging daily. So far, the OTS Stage 1 map appears to be better and more reliable than Stock UNLESS I am reading the datalogs wrong.

- AFRs at WOT are in the 12 range (instead of 14s)
- Knock Detection was present (like the stock map) but with much less frequency
- STFTs look good to me across all maps and ranges
- Ignition timing values are still inconsistent between banks 1 thru 4, but the Stage 1 map is much less erratic than the stock map at both part and wide open throttle


DATALOGS

Efficient Throttle (OTS Stage 1 93 gas):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KEL...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xET...w?usp=drivesdk

Efficient Throttle with Knock Detected at 64% accelerator pedal:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Vs3...w?usp=drivesdk

Sport Throttle:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mix...w?usp=drivesdk
Appreciate 0
      06-03-2020, 09:52 PM   #8
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Very helpful post re: understanding datalogs: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1497408

As of now, the BM3 OTS Stage 1 93 octane map seems to be performing better and more safely than the STOCK tune. I base this off the following empirical evidence:
1. Consistently lower AFRs at WOT.
2. No knock detection events at WOT.
3. Ignition advance timing is generally lower across all banks as long as IATs remain low.
4. Ignition timing overall is a bit more similar across all banks in most conditions.
5. STFT values are close to 1 or 1.1 at WOT (where 1 is perfect harmony for fueling).

A few things I did wrong while datalogging. I didn't have the DSC off or in MDM mode, so there might be some interference with the logs. I fell a bit short of redline. I also had the car in DCT mode rather than manual mode, mostly from 4th gear (rather than 3rd).

The ignition timing values being so inconsistent is bothering. I'm thinking of replacing the stock Bosch spark plugs with the NGK colder plugs as recommended by PTF. I had similar inconsistencies with both maps, just to a lesser degree with the OTS map (5-6 instead of 12-15). This makes me think it is a mechanical issue.

Would colder spark plugs help with the consistency of timing?

Can anyone smarter than me review my logs please between the stock and OTS Stage 1 maps?
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2020, 09:48 AM   #9
vafan13
Lieutenant
United_States
294
Rep
538
Posts

Drives: Sakhir Orange F10 M5
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by x35250 View Post
(3) WDC occasionally gets maxed out at 100%. Not much overhead.
Looking at the sport+ log...all 7 lines at 100% are grouped together and you're at 2100-2300rpm with 55-65% throttle. on either side of these lines it's at 40-43% WDC.

Edit: Looking at all three mode logs...there seems to be a ~1900-2400 RPM range where both the wastegates and the throttle valves open a lot (high 90s to 100% and 60%, respectively). I seem to recall allmotor saying something about this setup requiring a certain amount of boost at low levels, which the rest of the curve is dependent on it. Perhaps that's what we're seeing here?

Last edited by vafan13; 06-04-2020 at 10:15 AM..
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2020, 01:05 PM   #10
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vafan13 View Post
Looking at the sport+ log...all 7 lines at 100% are grouped together and you're at 2100-2300rpm with 55-65% throttle. on either side of these lines it's at 40-43% WDC.

Edit: Looking at all three mode logs...there seems to be a ~1900-2400 RPM range where both the wastegates and the throttle valves open a lot (high 90s to 100% and 60%, respectively). I seem to recall allmotor saying something about this setup requiring a certain amount of boost at low levels, which the rest of the curve is dependent on it. Perhaps that's what we're seeing here?
That makes sense to me and it may be what we're looking at. You take a 5,000-lb car and make it feel half its weight even in stop and go traffic, you're going to need some boost in the low-rpm ranges.
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2020, 03:20 PM   #11
vafan13
Lieutenant
United_States
294
Rep
538
Posts

Drives: Sakhir Orange F10 M5
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by x35250 View Post
That makes sense to me and it may be what we're looking at. You take a 5,000-lb car and make it feel half its weight even in stop and go traffic, you're going to need some boost in the low-rpm ranges.
yeah, someone with (way) more knowledge would have to weigh in on why, but I could see it being a way to increase perceived responsiveness and power at the low end where most "normal" driving happens.

Also, here and here are two interesting threads on AFR with turbocharged GDI applications. quote of possible note from the second one below. I think my takeaway is they don't follow the same guidelines on AFR as port injection, and thus a higher AFR reading is to be expected. but when adding additional boost/power, one would still want it lower.

Quote:
The AFR's measured don't reflect the in cylinder combustion mixture like port injection any more, the mixture now is directed and controlled unlike port injection where it was a spray and pray in comparison.

The concentrated mixture under the spark plug will still be rich on full throttle, but because of the targeted fuel delivery there will still be areas of the chamber that won't be filled with fuel meaning that the AFRs measured at the exhaust will read lean but the combustion mixture hasn't been.

Last edited by vafan13; 06-04-2020 at 03:31 PM..
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2020, 08:39 PM   #12
x35250
Private First Class
72
Rep
122
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5, Monte Carlo Blue
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (0)

Update: Pulled the trigger on getting tuned by Cary @ JordanTuned. Top-notch service.

I also recommend Mike @ X-PH for your car needs. Great vendor with great prices and service.

The base map was dialed in pretty darn close from the get-go. Monitors looked a lot better (safer) with the base map than with the OTS Stage I tune, especially Lambda (AFR).

Going through the revision process now. Will only get better from here.

I highly recommend a custom tune over anything else, if you can afford it.

If on a budget, reputable reflash tunes are probably the next best option. Consider getting your own datalogger with a reflash just to keep things in check. The tune itself may be fine when you first tuned, but mechanical issues can creep up, such as post-MAF air leaks bringing in unmetered air. You're blind to these unless you're logging regularly.

This is why I love BootMod3's Dashboard feature, which now also has Auto-Logging based on user-defined conditions.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 PM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST