Competition Package vs. Dinan modifications

[speedemn]

Hi all,

I am trying to decide between a handful of F10 M5 cars available in the market and am stuck on which subset of options I would prefer (while giving up some options since I can't get it all in the pre-owned market).

I am specifically looking at the Competition Package and am wondering if I choose the F10 M5 without Comp. Pkg. (as it has some other options that I desire that the Comp. Pkg. equipped vehicles do not have out of the available specimens) then is there a way for the dealer to equip the car where it would compensate (or over-compensate) for not having the Competition Package or if there are still some elements of the Comp. Pkg. that you cannot modify after the fact.

Here are the features of the Comp. Pkg.:

Power increase by 11kW (15HP) to 423kW (575 HP)
This option is easily overcome with Dinan exhaust, intake, tuning

Stiffer stabilizer (anti-roll) bars
This option is able to be substituted with the Dinan anti-roll bars - which I assume would be superior to the Comp. Pkg?

Stiffer and lower suspension (shocks and springs) (10mm lower than standard M5).
Dinan adjustable coilover suspension lowers the standard M5 with adjustability up to 1.25" and 15% stiffer

Stiffer front axle bushings
I don't think Dinan has anything to compensate for this?

Active M Differential with a unique tune for the competition package for improved traction
I don't think Dinan has anything to compensate for this?

New hydraulic rack-and-pinion steering with the M-specific Servotronic function with A MORE DIRECT PROGRAMMING to improve agility during cornering
I don't imagine that there is a substitute for this, is there?

M Dynamic mode (MDM) of DSC tuned with higher thresholds of intervention
I don't imagine that there is a substitute for this, is there?

New 20" M light alloy wheels
Not too concerned about this as there is a Dinan and many other quality aftermarket options.

Sport exhaust with black chrome tips
Dinan has its exhaust which I assume is lighter than stock M5 and with tuning gives performance gains while I think the Comp. Pkg. exhaust is just tips? Or lighter muffler?

The dealer is willing to throw in some Dinan mods to compensate for not having the Comp. Pkg. or another dealer has the car with Comp. Pkg. ready to go but missing a couple of other options that I do care about but performance is #1 so I am open to going either way if the differences can be overcome.

Any help in rationalizing through this would be greatly appreciated.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by speedemn

Hi all,

I am trying to decide between a handful of F10 M5 cars available in the market and am stuck on which subset of options I would prefer (while giving up some options since I can't get it all in the pre-owned market).

I am specifically looking at the Competition Package and am wondering if I choose the F10 M5 without Comp. Pkg. (as it has some other options that I desire that the Comp. Pkg. equipped vehicles do not have out of the available specimens) then is there a way for the dealer to equip the car where it would compensate (or over-compensate) for not having the Competition Package or if there are still some elements of the Comp. Pkg. that you cannot modify after the fact.

Here are the features of the Comp. Pkg.:

Power increase by 11kW (15HP) to 423kW (575 HP)
This option is easily overcome with Dinan exhaust, intake, tuning

Stiffer stabilizer (anti-roll) bars
This option is able to be substituted with the Dinan anti-roll bars - which I assume would be superior to the Comp. Pkg?

Stiffer and lower suspension (shocks and springs) (10mm lower than standard M5).
Dinan adjustable coilover suspension lowers the standard M5 with adjustability up to 1.25" and 15% stiffer

Stiffer front axle bushings
I don't think Dinan has anything to compensate for this?

Active M Differential with a unique tune for the competition package for improved traction
I don't think Dinan has anything to compensate for this?

New hydraulic rack-and-pinion steering with the M-specific Servotronic function with A MORE DIRECT PROGRAMMING to improve agility during cornering
I don't imagine that there is a substitute for this, is there?

M Dynamic mode (MDM) of DSC tuned with higher thresholds of intervention
I don't imagine that there is a substitute for this, is there?

New 20" M light alloy wheels
Not too concerned about this as there is a Dinan and many other quality aftermarket options.

Sport exhaust with black chrome tips
Dinan has its exhaust which I assume is lighter than stock M5 and with tuning gives performance gains while I think the Comp. Pkg. exhaust is just tips? Or lighter muffler?

The dealer is willing to throw in some Dinan mods to compensate for not having the Comp. Pkg. or another dealer has the car with Comp. Pkg. ready to go but missing a couple of other options that I do care about but performance is #1 so I am open to going either way if the differences can be overcome.

Any help in rationalizing through this would be greatly appreciated.

Comp simply for the steering rack but what are the other options that are missing with that car compared to the other?

[SFT33]

No question

[speedemn]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Comp simply for the steering rack but what are the other options that are missing with that car compared to the other?

Full Leather and black interior on the other non-Comp car which I absolutely love and have always had on my cars.

The Comp. car has extended champagne interior but if the Comp is that big a deal and cannot be compensated with the Dinan equivalents then I might be willing to forego full leather and black interior.

Looks like the steering is the one big difference that cannot be Dinan'ed... is it that big a difference from stock M5?

What about the M differential and different MDM on DSC - that big a difference and improvement from the stock M5? There doesn't seem to be a Dinan substitute for these features either.

[Rearview]

Dinan or any quality ECU flash tune hands down although there will always be a 15HP / TQ diff comparing tuned car to tuned car (at least according to Dinan dyno charts - @ the crank).

Buying used - CP will be a sold at a significant discount; go for it! Buying new, the $7k is tough to justify. Leasing ... not sure it's worth the extra $160-210/mo.

Throw Dinan Stage 1/2 on there for half the cost and add 80HP at the crank.

[SteveC]

I would always go for a standard OEM version of a car where possible. Reasons? Maintenance & Support, warranty, its been well tested as a package, its balanced, resale value.

For me its how the Comp Package comes together as a whole that is the value for me. How the steering and stiffer suspension work so well together giving more feedback, better turn-in response, superior adjustability, how the stiffer suspension and diff. maintain better traction and higher cornering limits, etc. etc. Comp pack has moved the whole car up a level in terms of performance, dynamic handling and enjoyment.

I think it would be tough to add various tuning parts to the car and have it perform in such a wholly well balanced way.
As well, in the UK standard cars are easier to insure and maintain.

[chong0]

dinan ecu no contest

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by speedemn

Full Leather and black interior on the other non-Comp car which I absolutely love and have always had on my cars.

The Comp. car has extended champagne interior but if the Comp is that big a deal and cannot be compensated with the Dinan equivalents then I might be willing to forego full leather and black interior.

Looks like the steering is the one big difference that cannot be Dinan'ed... is it that big a difference from stock M5?

What about the M differential and different MDM on DSC - that big a difference and improvement from the stock M5? There doesn't seem to be a Dinan substitute for these features either.

The steering is a big difference. All March '13 and later builds received the stiffer front bushings and some hardware and software changes to the steering. Comp goes further with a revised steering rack that all but eliminates any dead on-center feel. It's far more direct and works quite well in comfort mode so one doesn't have to use the artificially heavy sport/sport plus Servotronic modes. The differential I do not believe can be reprogrammed, but DSC (MDM) can be re-calibrated via coding.

With the suspension, yes the Dinan HAS kit can go lower, but the recommend settings are the same as CP (-.75" compared to non CP). The spring rates are also 15% firmer for both, but CP will have revised Struts as well. Both have revised bumpstops.

I did a quick scan of the inventory in Canada and though there aren't many 2014-2015 cars available, there are several with CP and Full Black interior. Surprised at the number with Carbon Ceramics and is an option I wouldn't recommend.

[speedemn]

Originally Posted by Rearview

Dinan or any quality ECU flash tune hands down although there will always be a 15HP / TQ diff comparing tuned car to tuned car (at least according to Dinan dyno charts - @ the crank).

Throw Dinan Stage 1/2 on there for half the cost and add 80HP at the crank.

I read that on the Dinan site as well although at around 700HP crank, 15HP difference is insignificant (same could be said at 560 vs 575 stock I guess). So I am not as set on the performance number since this difference in HP can be easily overcome with tuning (and every car responds differently so the 15HP difference after tuning isn't always necessarily the case). I am more concerned about the steering, differential and MDM in DSC differences from stock to CP and how noticeable it is.

Originally Posted by Rearview

Buying used - CP will be a sold at a significant discount; go for it! Buying new, the $7k is tough to justify. Leasing ... not sure it's worth the extra $160-210/mo.

The vehicle options I am looking at have the CP priced higher than the stock M5. I am trying to negotiate the CP down but the stock M5 dealer is willing to compensate for the CP differences with Dinan upgrades (S1 + coilovers). But otherwise the one with CP is priced $15K higher but it is also 1 model year newer.

[speedemn]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I would always go for a standard OEM version of a car where possible. Reasons? Maintenance & Support, warranty, its been well tested as a package, its balanced, resale value.

For me its how the Comp Package comes together as a whole that is the value for me. How the steering and stiffer suspension work so well together giving more feedback, better turn-in response, superior adjustability, how the stiffer suspension and diff. maintain better traction and higher cornering limits, etc. etc. Comp pack has moved the whole car up a level in terms of performance, dynamic handling and enjoyment.

I think it would be tough to add various tuning parts to the car and have it perform in such a wholly well balanced way.
As well, in the UK standard cars are easier to insure and maintain.

I completely agree with this thought as well which is another reason this is a tougher decision for me.

However there is a certain peace of mind with Dinan... otherwise I would likely be looking at JB4 or some of the other options out there if raw power #s is all I was concerned about.

But certainly lots of merit in an overall from factory well balanced vehicle... just makes my decision harder to make.

[speedemn]

Originally Posted by miamiten

The steering is a big difference. All March '13 and later builds received the stiffer front bushings and some hardware and software changes to the steering. Comp goes further with a revised steering rack that all but eliminates any dead on-center feel. It's far more direct and works quite well in comfort mode so one doesn't have to use the artificially heavy sport/sport plus Servotronic modes. The differential I do not believe can be reprogrammed, but DSC (MDM) can be re-calibrated via coding.

Great info - thank you. I guess it sounds like the steering does have a noticeable difference in LCI vs LCI+CP. I might have to just drive the two and see if I notice. :-/ But it feels that either way if I don't get the CP but get the other upgrades to compensate that I might always feel that I am "missing something".

What is the technical difference in the differential? Higher rear end final drive ratio? Or more complex than that?

Originally Posted by miamiten

With the suspension, yes the Dinan HAS kit can go lower, but the recommend settings are the same as CP (-.75" compared to non CP). The spring rates are also 15% firmer for both, but CP will have revised Struts as well. Both have revised bumpstops.

Agreed - I would only lower as much as the CP... not any more. Dinan also recommends 0.75" to maintain ride quality. I do not desire to scrape the ground. The spring rate on the Dinan is also 15% stiffer.

Originally Posted by miamiten

I did a quick scan of the inventory in Canada and though there aren't many 2014-2015 cars available, there are several with CP and Full Black interior. Surprised at the number with Carbon Ceramics and is an option I wouldn't recommend.

Most of the black full merino interior cars do not have the B&O sound - which from what I have heard and read is an absolute must for an audiophile. :-) Agreed on the carbon ceramic brakes. I hear that they are supposed to last forever but are very fragile and need a lot of care during removal and replacement of tires/rims.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by speedemn

Great info - thank you. I guess it sounds like the steering does have a noticeable difference in LCI vs LCI+CP. I might have to just drive the two and see if I notice. :-/ But it feels that either way if I don't get the CP but get the other upgrades to compensate that I might always feel that I am "missing something".

What is the technical difference in the differential? Higher rear end final drive ratio? Or more complex than that?

Agreed - I would only lower as much as the CP... not any more. Dinan also recommends 0.75" to maintain ride quality. I do not desire to scrape the ground. The spring rate on the Dinan is also 15% stiffer.

Where did you look? There are no full black interior with CP when I last looked (yesterday). I have all my options logged in a spreadsheet now.

Definitely drive both if you have the opportunity. I recommend leaving Servotronic in Comfort on both to feel the true difference.

This video isn't half bad to get a little impression as to the difference. The Ring Taxi has CP and ///M Drivers Pack. Both cars are in MDM mode. At the corners in the video where both cars are close to each other and follow the same line at approx the same speed, watch the front wheel of the Ring Taxi vs the steering wheel in the standard car.

The Diff is physically the same but the ECU (GHAS) has different software. BMW will not support an upgrade.

The Dinan HAS Springs are 15% firmer than the standard M5 springs. CP Springs are also 15% firmer than the standard springs so no difference there. Where they differ is CP has different struts and revised EDC Programming and Dinan has adjustable spring pads and bump stop perch. It's been a long time since I drove the S1 and it was much improved without a doubt. My opinion though...CP Setup is slightly better and can be further improved with the increased negative camber upper wishbone and revised alignment front and rear. The downside is increased tire wear for DD use. I also think the CP/Dinan suggested ride height is perfect for the car so the latter's adjustable height ability isn't of interest. Neither have gap in the rear and the front is very little with a slightly more aggressive tire/wheel setup.

I just did a brief glance of all M5's on Auto-Trader I think? Was just a quick look. I remember the CP with Individual Champagne you mentioned since it has The Ultimate Package on it. There were 2 or 3 with Full Black interior, one with a high number of klick a on the odo, one with chrome exhaust tips switched out, and another that just looked beat. There's a Frozen White/Sakhir but it was overpriced IIRC.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by speedemn

Most of the black full merino interior cars do not have the B&O sound - which from what I have heard and read is an absolute must for an audiophile. :-) Agreed on the carbon ceramic brakes. I hear that they are supposed to last forever but are very fragile and need a lot of care during removal and replacement of tires/rims.

Sample the sound systems too and consider the media type you use most. Satellite, FM, and Compressed Digital will sound equally as crappy on either system. Some think it's worth it regardless, others don't. To me it depends on the car. I like a bit of bass and volume and although B&O is tight and clear, it's not quite as deep as I like in the F10. My first F10 had the rare Dirac Individual Audio which to me was slightly better than B&O overall.

Ceramics are just a pain in the ass for a heavy sedan. They'll get your attention quickly when cold since they need heat to operate normally, and will feel mushy with moisture present. Winter is a big concern since they need a 20" wheel with adequate clearance and sodium/magnesium chloride can damage the rotors.

[SFT33]

All this talk about how the carbon brakes don't work under certain conditions is hyperbole. I have had my car for a week with CCBs and have driven in the cold, wet, etc. I have not experienced ANY issues. Don't let them scare you away. They also look the business and produce virtually no brake dust. I love them.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by SFT33

All this talk about how the carbon brakes don't work under certain conditions is hyperbole. I have had my car for a week with CCBs and have driven in the cold, wet, etc. I have not experienced ANY issues. Don't let them scare you away. They also look the business and produce virtually no brake dust. I love them.

I have no issues either and my CCB does not squeal, where as my M6 steel brake squeal.

[apexlocator]

Originally Posted by speedemn

The vehicle options I am looking at have the CP priced higher than the stock M5. I am trying to negotiate the CP down but the stock M5 dealer is willing to compensate for the CP differences with Dinan upgrades (S1 + coilovers). But otherwise the one with CP is priced $15K higher but it is also 1 model year newer.

You had me at 1 MY newer...lol. If warranty is a concern for you, get the newer one with CP. Resale will be better also. The price delta sounds about right between the two examples.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by SFT33

All this talk about how the carbon brakes don't work under certain conditions is hyperbole. I have had my car for a week with CCBs and have driven in the cold, wet, etc. I have not experienced ANY issues. Don't let them scare you away. They also look the business and produce virtually no brake dust. I love them.

CCB's value is a touchy subject for those who have paid for it (myself included), so I've edited the reply above and will rephrase again here...CCB's have their pro's and cons. Perhaps the words "don't work" were a bit drastic. They do have distinct characteristics though. Some behave just like any iron system on the street, others do not. Unless there has been a sudden undocumented change, the BMW CCB's on the M5/M6 fall into the latter group. I'm not a Novice when it comes to Carbon Ceramic Brake Systems (first road car I had with them was a new 996 GT2; latest is my current M5...came with them, but were swapped for standard CP M Compound). I'm also very familiar with Carbon-Carbon Braking Systems used in Motorsport, Avation, and high-speed rail which is often incorrectly compared to the road car systems.

Pros:

- No dust since they do not wear like conventional brakes
- Improved pedal feel when the optimal temperature range is reached
- Capable of sustaining maximum kinetic friction at high temperatures with better heat dissipation capability.
- Small amount of rotational mass advantage (3.5lbs per corner)

Cons:

- They are fragile when not in compression. Drop a wheel on a rotor; kiss it goodbye. I've only seen this twice, but aggressive use of a hard wheel brush handle can fracture/chip a CCB Rotor.

- Since they are designed for "normal driving conditions" and are expected to last the life of the car, replacement not attributed to a defect is on the owner. They are INSANELY Expensive if coming out of ones pocket. Moderate track use or even constant hard use on the street will burn the discs up fast. I'm told the PDC M5/M6 are getting approx 1000 track miles before they reach the replacement point (M3/M4 are getting 2400).

-To dispel the "hyperbole" opinion (Quoting M GmbH and the the Engineer responsible for Brake Systems):

With conventional brake discs, corrosion of the friction ring is likely with low mileages, long idle periods and low usage, because the minimum thresholds required to initiate the disc brake's self-cleaning mechanism is not attained. Corroded brake discs generate a rubbing effect when the brakes are applied, which in the majority of cases can no longer be removed.

With M carbon ceramic brakes, since they do not have a problem with corrosion, the self cleaning function is not utilized. The brake-drying mechanism remains, but is only active with the automatic windscreen wiper system engaged.

They are less subject to wear under normal conditions. The brake pads wear more slowly, and under normal use, the carbon ceramic brake disc will last as long as the car itself; the silicon carbide friction coating is virtually non-wearing. However, under extreme conditions, like those on the racetrack, or repeated high temperature cycling, the brake discs are susceptible to oxidative wear. When the discs are repeatedly heated to temperatures of 600 degrees C and above, the fibres within the brake disc burn up.

This means that the disc does not become progressively thinner but lighter. To detect the level to which this may have occurred, three wear indicators per friction coating are applied to the disc, set apart at angles of 120 degrees. This allows the dealer to recognise when discs have been subjected to high levels of oxidative wear. The brake pad service team then takes out the brake disc and weighs it. If it weighs less than the minimum permitted weight, the disc must be replaced.

The carbon ceramic brake system does have a number of special characteristics which operators should be aware of:

Brake discs and brake pads in M carbon ceramic brakes only achieve proper wear and contact pattern after 1,000 km or more. During this initial period, extreme deceleration and activation of the Anti-Lock Braking feature or Vehicle Stability Control should be avoided if possible.

Material-specific properties mean that increased operational noise may be experienced when braking, particularly in wet conditions, just before the vehicle comes to a halt. However, this does not affect the brakes' performance, operational safety or stability.

It is a good idea to clean both brake discs and callipers with a steam jet or high-pressure cleaner before putting the vehicle through an automatic car wash or washing bay facility, to avoid the formation of encrustations or deposits of, for example, salt crystals, when the car stands stationary after cleaning. The cleaning effect of such automatic washing systems in the vehicle's wheel areas is generally not sufficient to ensure this.

As with all brake systems, it is important to ensure that any wheel cleaner used is only applied to the wheel rims. If the brake disc and pads become wet, all brakes undergo a drop in their friction coefficient. M carbon ceramic brakes however, under the impact of moisture and road salt, for example after using a car wash, or when condensation has formed overnight, the braking effect will be impacted. This may be perceived as reduced braking performance, but it can be compensated for by applying more pressure with the brake pedal; this should be continued until the pads and discs have fully dried out. Since the difference in frictional coefficient between dry and wet brakes is higher than normal with M carbon ceramic brakes, it is felt all the more clearly by the driver.

[///Mpower///]

Originally Posted by chong0

dinan ecu no contest

+1 on this opinion.

[DingolfingLove]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Definitely drive both if you have the opportunity. I recommend leaving Servotronic in Comfort on both to feel the true difference.

This video isn't half bad to get a little impression as to the difference. The Ring Taxi has CP and ///M Drivers Pack. Both cars are in MDM mode. At the corners in the video where both cars are close to each other and follow the same line at approx the same speed, watch the front wheel of the Ring Taxi vs the steering wheel in the standard car.

The Diff is physically the same but the ECU (GHAS) has different software. BMW will not support an upgrade.

The Dinan HAS Springs are 15% firmer than the standard M5 springs. CP Springs are also 15% firmer than the standard springs so no difference there. Where they differ is CP has different struts and revised EDC Programming and Dinan has adjustable spring pads and bump stop perch. It's been a long time since I drove the S1 and it was much improved without a doubt. My opinion though...CP Setup is slightly better and can be further improved with the increased negative camber upper wishbone and revised alignment front and rear. The downside is increased tire wear for DD use. I also think the CP/Dinan suggested ride height is perfect for the car so the latter's adjustable height ability isn't of interest. Neither have gap in the rear and the front is very little with a slightly more aggressive tire/wheel setup.

I just did a brief glance of all M5's on Auto-Trader I think? Was just a quick look. I remember the CP with Individual Champagne you mentioned since it has The Ultimate Package on it. There were 2 or 3 with Full Black interior, one with a high number of klick a on the odo, one with chrome exhaust tips switched out, and another that just looked beat. There's a Frozen White/Sakhir but it was overpriced IIRC.

Awesome - the best M5/ring video I have seen. The non-taxi driver is a decent pedaller !

[speedemn]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

You had me at 1 MY newer...lol. If warranty is a concern for you, get the newer one with CP. Resale will be better also. The price delta sounds about right between the two examples.

lol I was initially sold by that as well (although the 2014 comes with CPO so it has warranty until 2020 while the 2015 is standard warranty which ends in 2019. If I do pursue it I would negotiate that in of course but the difference is potentially in favour of the 2014 there.

Resale for me is a relatively lower concern since I put the miles on my vehicles... I drive a lot. So 1 MY newer isn't going to gain me the additional value on the tail end for the premium that I would pay up front.

The last thing to consider is the $15K difference put in to Dinan on the non-CP would build a smokin' car! I would only be missing the steering and differential enhancements.

[apexlocator]

hmmm....then I guess I'd lean towards the 2014 w/o CP but with the Dinan goodies (which maintains factory warranty). All depends on your driving plans too. I'll never track this beast (circuit course, not drag) where steering enhancements can prove worthwhile (I already have a track car). Its my 4300 lb daily driver, and honestly, non-CP steering isnt like you're driving an odyssey minivan.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by DingolfingLove

Awesome - the best M5/ring video I have seen. The non-taxi driver is a decent pedaller !

It was the closest example I could find and figured some would find it informative or at least entertaining. My Italian is pretty rough but from what I can understand, this is a group of friends that share the car and this was the first outing of the car on the nordschleife. I dug a little deeper and the car isn't stock, but modified with Eibach Springs and Pilot Sport Cup 2s at the time that video was made (Mid June last year). The driver definitely has some skills and did a decent job of catching the car in the spots and conditions where it tends to pull a surprise out of nowhere to make sure the driver's starfish is operating properly. He wasn't nearly as smooth as one needs to be on that track and probably wasn't accustomed to the throttle sensitivity and low to mid range power delivery coming from an E92 M3. I mentioned in another thread that the car feels heavier and more cumbersome than it actually is due to the sound isolation and lack of wind noise. It also makes it difficult to hear the signals from the tires and PSCups go nearly silent until the limit is reached if they're overheated...rolling the window down helps.

The full speed limits were in effect at that time and his BTG time was 8:10. The Ring Taxi isn't "allowed" to go under 8:15 with passengers aboard, and anything under 8:30 is frowned upon since they started banging up cars. I do know that one has run a 7:26.7 BTG with the I-Pool Speed Limit but prior to the temporary all inclusive Speed Limits. That puts the full course time at 7:45ish which matches the unsubstantiated claim from BMW that the CP is 10sec faster than the standard car which ran 7:55.