iND/AMS Alpha F10 M5 Tuning Program Testing and Datalogging Update. 1,000+ HP Goal!

[Nate@IND]

Originally Posted by Soorena

Nate i have a couple of questions for you. Are they completely new turbos or they are the OEM GT28's with upgraded compressor and turbine wheels? Also who does the tuning? AMS guys? Why they just don't provide the hardware like what they did with the M157 turbo upgrade so customers can source their software from any tuner they want? The last one, did they find out the limit of stock internals/DCT?

Thank you

Tuning is the main issue at this point. AMS has the hardware complete but no tuners have broken the BMW encryption on the stock ECU. All of the "tunes" currently available are based off of a BMW press file. AMS and iND would be more than happy to supply the upgraded compressors.

[noushy]

Nate, supposedly there are tuners who have cracked this but the issue remains that this version of the DME is much more advanced and there are multiple tuning issues. Again what limited info I have is either from the forums or from one of the Dinan reps who confirms that they have the N63tu/S63tu software but it is much more advanced than the last generation N63/S63 software. Either way I think this is something that everyone is patiently waiting for but also having some hesitation as to what the transmission can handle and what other internal engine mods need to be performed. You guys are way ahead of the curve here in the US.

Noushy

[Nate@IND]

Originally Posted by noushy

Nate, supposedly there are tuners who have cracked this but the issue remains that this version of the DME is much more advanced and there are multiple tuning issues. Again what limited info I have is either from the forums or from one of the Dinan reps who confirms that they have the N63tu/S63tu software but it is much more advanced than the last generation N63/S63 software. Either way I think this is something that everyone is patiently waiting for but also having some hesitation as to what the transmission can handle and what other internal engine mods need to be performed. You guys are way ahead of the curve here in the US.

Noushy

Key word

I'm guessing that Dinan will be the first to market with an S63tu tune since they now have a close relationship with BMW UK.

[M-bitious]

Originally Posted by noushy

Nate, supposedly there are tuners who have cracked this but the issue remains that this version of the DME is much more advanced and there are multiple tuning issues. Again what limited info I have is either from the forums or from one of the Dinan reps who confirms that they have the N63tu/S63tu software but it is much more advanced than the last generation N63/S63 software. Either way I think this is something that everyone is patiently waiting for but also having some hesitation as to what the transmission can handle and what other internal engine mods need to be performed. You guys are way ahead of the curve here in the US.

Noushy

I have been driving my Manhart 750bhp (engine) M5 hard for over 5,000 miles and the tranny and clutch are holding up fine. The car puts down 890Nm at the wheels, so it is a pretty strong gearbox.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by Nate@IND

Tuning is the main issue at this point. AMS has the hardware complete but no tuners have broken the BMW encryption on the stock ECU. All of the "tunes" currently available are based off of a BMW press file. AMS and iND would be more than happy to supply the upgraded compressors.

Thanks for the response Nate. So are all of the tunes available based on the BMW beta file? That's quite a shame. Guess piggyback is the only way to go for now.

Originally Posted by M-bitious

I have been driving my Manhart 750bhp (engine) M5 hard for over 5,000 miles and the tranny and clutch are holding up fine. The car puts down 890Nm at the wheels, so it is a pretty strong gearbox.

Did Manhart crack the ECU or it's like other BMW file-based tunes?

[Nate@IND]

Originally Posted by Soorena

Thanks for the response Nate. So are all of the tunes available based on the BMW beta file? That's quite a shame. Guess piggyback is the only way to go for now.

Did Manhart crack the ECU or it's like other BMW file-based tunes?

Same BMW files....

With an ECU this advanced I would not recommend installing a piggyback. My guess is Dinan will be the first to the market with a "real" tune.

[delano]

I was thinking about getting the Eurocharged tune cause a lot of people on here seem to be very happy with it, what do you mean by there's no "real" tunes right now? I thought remapping like Euro does was the better way to go as opposed at adding a module like Manhart or Switzers version?

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by Nate@IND

Same BMW files....

My guess is Dinan will be the first to the market with a "real" tune.

Which probably will be very conservative.

Originally Posted by delano

I was thinking about getting the Eurocharged tune cause a lot of people on here seem to be very happy with it, what do you mean by there's no "real" tunes right now? I thought remapping like Euro does was the better way to go as opposed at adding a module like Manhart or Switzers version?

What Nate means is that no one has cracked the DME so far, so tuners have very limited control on the unit.

As for the Piggy vs flash, handsdown flash is always better. However, with current amount of control on ECU, a piggy seems better and that's my opinion.

[bmwMcrzy]

Originally Posted by Soorena

so tuners have very limited control on the unit.

I get this feeling with any BMW DME/ECU when compared to other car manufacturers.

[Nate@IND]

Originally Posted by Soorena

Which probably will be very conservative.

What Nate means is that no one has cracked the DME so far, so tuners have very limited control on the unit.

As for the Piggy vs flash, handsdown flash is always better. However, with current amount of control on ECU, a piggy seems better and that's my opinion.

Correct nobody has cracked the ECU encryption. All "tunes" on the market are using a BMW press file.

Originally Posted by bmwMcrzy

I get this feeling with any BMW DME/ECU when compared to other car manufacturers.

Not necessarily true. Take a look at the E9x M3 S65 market.

Tuners just need to break the encryption and you will see some 900-1000hp M5 around.

[bmwMcrzy]

Originally Posted by Nate@IND

Not necessarily true. Take a look at the E9x M3 S65 market.

Tuners just need to break the encryption and you will see some 900-1000hp M5 around.

Breaking the encryption is only the first hurdle.
The next one is defining all the tables, maps and variables.
The one after that is making all the proper adjustments to the calibration data for it to be a tune.

Their is so much of the calibration data that isn't touched by quite a few BMW tuners.
Alpha N tunes are only a few years old now in the BMW world.
Think about what else could be possible if the ECU was really completely defined & understood.

Can't wait seeing this 1000 hp+ M5 terrorized the streets of Chicagoland.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by delano

I was thinking about getting the Eurocharged tune cause a lot of people on here seem to be very happy with it, what do you mean by there's no "real" tunes right now? I thought remapping like Euro does was the better way to go as opposed at adding a module like Manhart or Switzers version?

Manhart tune is not a added module, it's a OBD flash.

It's only if you want to go for the Stage IV tune with 700+hp that they add a boost control module.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by bmwMcrzy

I get this feeling with any BMW DME/ECU when compared to other car manufacturers.

When they had Bosch ECU's things were better. Cars were not Mustang-like in terms of tuner friendliness, but they weren't this bad. The new Siemens units are so complicated i sometimes think even BMW engineers don't have full control over it. The Siemens MSS5x in E46 and E39 Ms are fairly old models compared to the newer ones, but after 10 years only one tuner can crack the DME for turbo application. And on the other side, we have the new Corvette which tuners got access to ECU codes even before it's production. Chevy and companies like that accept the aftermarket scene and try to attract more potential buyers to their products while BMW says it will even make platforms less tuner friendly.

[wisesoul]

Bump! How's the car coming along guys?

[mkPOTO]

Originally Posted by wisesoul

Bump! How's the car coming along guys?

heard this car today at Cars and Caffeine and pfft...

[mkPOTO]

Originally Posted by mkPOTO

heard this car today at Cars and Caffeine and pfft...

sounds NUTS

lol

[noushy]

Ok so just read a little interview from one of the Dinan engineers. They have a tune, exhaust and intake coming. However their max is around 650-680. They also have a stroker version with new internals, lower compression pistons and larger turbos good for around 750hp. Interesting that they dont think the stock internals are good for 700hp+ without changes.

Noushy

[wisesoul]

Originally Posted by mkPOTO

sounds NUTS

lol

What an absolute beast, so does this mean the car is up and running with the new turbo setup?

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by noushy

Ok so just read a little interview from one of the Dinan engineers. They have a tune, exhaust and intake coming. However their max is around 650-680. They also have a stroker version with new internals, lower compression pistons and larger turbos good for around 750hp. Interesting that they dont think the stock internals are good for 700hp+ without changes.

Noushy

Think of it this way...since Dinan is likely to provide a warranty matching BMW's...they want the customer to help mitigate warranty claims on upgraded turbos by reinforcing the engine internals. So in that sense I don't blame them for asking the customer to fork over the extra cash to go 750+hp. As opposed to doing intake, tune and exhaust on turbos for 660hp, they must still feel confident in the reliability of the engine internals at that power level...

[noushy]

Originally Posted by Tom C

Think of it this way...since Dinan is likely to provide a warranty matching BMW's...they want the customer to help mitigate warranty claims on upgraded turbos by reinforcing the engine internals. So in that sense I don't blame them for asking the customer to fork over the extra cash to go 750+hp. As opposed to doing intake, tune and exhaust on turbos for 660hp, they must still feel confident in the reliability of the engine internals at that power level...

Reasonable thought process. Dinan always over engineers their upgrades but Steve is a hell of an engineer and his products speak for themselves. Lets just see what comes out.

[Kato]

Subscribed!

[Nate@IND]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Damn!

Come visit and beat this Beast up