Fifth Gear BMW F10 M5 Video Review

[mdh]

Overall, just a low-quality review. Nothing about the steering, chassis, overall feel of the car or any particular likes/dislikes other than the 'aural pleasure'. OK, that was clever, but doesn't really tell you much about specifics.

Just a few comments at the end about "...doesn't excite me as much as the E60..." but "...more powerful and faster than ever...". Nice to look at though. I'd keep her video, and dub in Tiff's commentary - that would have been a decent review.

[Ateam]

Originally Posted by mdh

Overall, just a low-quality review. Nothing about the steering, chassis, overall feel of the car or any particular likes/dislikes other than the 'aural pleasure'. OK, that was clever, but doesn't really tell you much about specifics.

Just a few comments at the end about "...doesn't excite me as much as the E60..." but "...more powerful and faster than ever...". Nice to look at though. I'd keep her video, and dub in Tiff's commentary - that would have been a decent review.

Couldn't be more wrong. They great thing about her reviews is she epitomizes what 99 percent of M owners look for in an M car-that "aural pleasure" that she so nicely sums it up as. That "aural" pleasure she speaks of incorporates all of those objective things like steering, sound, feel, cornering etc etc into one emotional feeling-if it has the "aural" sensation than the car has all of the stuff just "right" If it does not than perhaps on paper it has things right but it does not become a situation of past M's where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts-the true measure of an M car IMO.

Her reviews are great because they are not the same objective comments done by 99 percnet of other reviewers.

Bottom line is this car is great on paper, great when measuring any objective stats in real life but not great when comes to the "experience" you get when driving it.

Go buy a Z06 and you get that hp,less weight and better in all objective performance measures at a faction of the cost.

[Ateam]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Regarding the exhaust sound
Since it's a V8
Can't you have 4 cylinders exhausting into the turbos
And 4 going straight out the tailpipes?
Wouldn't that give you much better sound?
You could pick the 4 cylinders that would you give you the right pulses to keep the turbos spinning happily
And the other 4 cylinders exhaust straight out to give it a meaty sound

You cannot really build a turbo engine with selective exhaust gases going to the turbo's. For one you would drastically increase the lag of the turbos. Does not quite work like that

[M-Power111]

Originally Posted by Ateam

You cannot really build a turbo engine with selective exhaust gases going to the turbo's. For one you would drastically increase the lag of the turbos. Does not quite work like that

true im sure a simple aftermarket exhaust will fix the sound for those concerned. its a minor detail in my opinion but an important one at the same time.

[mackacosha]

Originally Posted by mundo74

Like the mini skirt

yeah she has some thick legs

[Q4P]

No one has answered my very simple question yet...

I think people are still failing to understand that newer age M cars (late 90's and past) are made to be great daily drivers as well as decent track cars. They are made to be a blend of both of these things especially a large family cruiser such as the M5. If BMW still made M cars like they did 30 years ago; then they'd sell about 5 of them each time because the market would be incredibly limited. A lot of people are still failing to understand that the enthusiast market (M models included) is very limited... 90% of the people that I've met that purchased M cars were either doctors or lawyers (much older folks) that bought the car for the badge. Very few people truly track these cars and those that do are represented on this forum and not a true representation of the buying population.

[M-Power111]

Originally Posted by SDeFranco1

Because Americans are lazy.

amen

[Prince_of_Persia]

Originally Posted by Questforpower

No one has answered my very simple question yet...

I think people are still failing to understand that newer age M cars (late 90's and past) are made to be great daily drivers as well as decent track cars. They are made to be a blend of both of these things especially a large family cruiser such as the M5. If BMW still made M cars like they did 30 years ago; then they'd sell about 5 of them each time because the market would be incredibly limited. A lot of people are still failing to understand that the enthusiast market (M models included) is very limited... 90% of the people that I've met that purchased M cars were either doctors or lawyers (much older folks) that bought the car for the badge. Very few people truly track these cars and those that do are represented on this forum and not a true representation of the buying population.

Please don't post about something that you don't have any information / you don't own one as well.

I am keeping my M3 and not going to upgrade to the next model. I was hoping the next M3 to have another high rev engine (and was hoping for another V8). I personally like NA engines way more as well since they are so much robust (just compare 335i problems vs M3s).

Anyways I am done here.

[sA x sKy]

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Persia

Please don't post about something that you don't have any information / you don't own one as well.

I am keeping my M3 and not going to upgrade to the next model. I was hoping the next M3 to have another high rev engine (and was hoping for another V8). I personally like NA engines way more as well since they are so much robust (just compare 335i problems vs M3s).

Anyways I am done here.

Dude, his point was a pretty accurate generalization of most people who drive M cars...I don't know how it is in Alberta, but in NY, 90% of M owners are old bums..not that, that's a bad thing of course.

And so what if he doesn't own one? Is his opinion weighed less because of it?

[bmwral]

madman23, I'm still trying to find out if the watch winder box you posted in another post, is still for sale.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Ateam

Clearly anyone who thinks all you need is an aftermarket exhaust has never driven the v10. It is a sound that cannot be replicated with a turbo V8 or any other engine. Even the m3, while sounds great in its own right, sounds nothing like the v10 scream. She is on the same page as me, as much of the enjoyment of these M cars is the EXPERIENCE and not just the stats. Just like the 335 folks like to spit out stats. Even if it performs better in every objective measure its not always as exhileritating to drive and 99 percent of m owners buy the car to enjoy on a day to day basis and not race.

If you saw her drive the m3 or m5 you can tell she is not liking this car at all. Watch her review the m3 gts, m3 or e60 m5. She goes absolutely giddy wild. This was the most reserved I have ever seen in her a bmw.

I like this car but especially here in the US, who cares if it is faster and has 560hp. I would have rather have another 500hp v10 that has the soul and sound of the e60.

You nailed it in several points there. I'll expand.

Noise: anyone who talks about exhausts 'fixing' the sound has a serious issue. The reason is sounds like a turbo car is because it's turbocharged. There is not one turbocharged car in the entire world that sounds anything like a high performance NA one. Not one.
Car and Driver did a comparo a while back on the GTR, M3 and Porsche Turbo. If you watch the video, it's evident that the only one that sounds like a sports car is the M3. The GTR and Porsche sound like absolutely nothing. BORING!

Experience: this is the whole point of the cars. It's nice to take XX seconds to reach YY speed, but in real life what matters is the experience.
This new car has much, much better numbers than the E60 M5. That was expected. It also sounds like a turbo car, with the same uninspiring note as all the rest of the turbo cars. This is an important part of the experience.
A 335 with boltons is way faster than an E46 M3, but after driving both I had no doubt in my mind: M3. It actually sounds and feels like a sports car. The 335 feels and sounds like a more powerful version of a 330: a civilian car.

The US: And here is the best part of all. I'm appalled when I read about people whining about the lack of torque of the V10 of the desire to have torque monster. What for exactly? On the V10, after pressing the throttle 10 consecutive seconds you can end up in jail.
Hell, I've lived most of my life in Europe, and there I can see the alllure of a retardedly powerful car that sounds like a vacuum cleaner... but here? Come on guys. Here you'll spend almost all the time in the M at 80 mph, and won't even have a nice V10 wail to accompany you.


I'm also surprised when I read all the 'See? The new one is faster than the old one!!'. Yeah duh!! No one ever said it would be slower. By making a turbo M5 they have gone a good ways towards killing the excitement of an M car. Several reviews have already mentioned this (Fifth Gear, Car and Driver), but even if they hadn't, it's still obvious.


I guess the underlying issue is that a lot of people on the boards know little about cars. It's disturbing to read all the 'put an exhaust' comments here and elsewhere, very disturbing. Regarding the 'lack of torque': that's what a special engine has. Low torque, high rpm screamers belong in sports cars. Turbo engines, no matter how powerful they are, are great for soccer moms and others who don't know what a gearshift is.


SYT_Shadow

[Ateam]

Originally Posted by Questforpower

No one has answered my very simple question yet...

I think people are still failing to understand that newer age M cars (late 90's and past) are made to be great daily drivers as well as decent track cars. They are made to be a blend of both of these things especially a large family cruiser such as the M5. If BMW still made M cars like they did 30 years ago; then they'd sell about 5 of them each time because the market would be incredibly limited. A lot of people are still failing to understand that the enthusiast market (M models included) is very limited... 90% of the people that I've met that purchased M cars were either doctors or lawyers (much older folks) that bought the car for the badge. Very few people truly track these cars and those that do are represented on this forum and not a true representation of the buying population.

If you are getting to the point of which other way could bmw feasibly have gone? Well I agree with you financially it makes a lot of sense for the next cycle of cars BUT M cars have never been financially good moves to many degrees.

The last e60 and e90 M's were probably some of the most expensive (probably the most expensive) bmw ever had to spend on engineering. I am pretty positive they do not make a big profit on their m cars when it is all said and done comparing R and D etc. With that said, by making and keeping the "m" brand something special, something that has kept winning time and time and time and time again in car mags-meaning bmw is plastered front and center on everything as "win" "the best" etc. The payoff was 10000 fold in marketing and sales of all of their other brands. It also made for very loyal drivers, the most loyal in the business. So although it was not always the most cost effectively built car, it served them well for many years in the overall picture.

The e90 m3 would have been WAY cheaper to just use a tuned N54 engine in there or a variety of the N54 or something else that was already developed but instead it developed a speciific engine just for the one car. Same for the e60 M5.

So back to my point-I think the route bmw should have gone with the new M cars is have TWO engine options. A traditional NA engine and a TT engine for those that really want the gas savings and torque.

The cost of two engines could have been easily offset by the fact the TT engine cost them nothing since it was already implemented in the million other M cars out there-x5/6M and more to come.

So while this option would be more costly to implement-it would continue the longstanding benefit that was had by generations past-the ongoing winning mag articles and the king of all sports cars. The true enthusiasts would have stuck around because they could still get the forumula that worked for them.

This would be a la porsche-they offer the turbo but offer the gt3 and carrera as well.

Simple- M3, M5 and M6 should have a high revving HA engine and turbo.

This would also really have neglible impact on their fleet mpg numbers since so so few people would opt for the NA engine in the scheme of things that it really would not make a dent. Although few would pick it-it would be an important few-the enthusiasts and performance testing/marketing world-which like I said is something that I feel has been tossed aside by bmw which IMO will come back to bite them in years to come.

[Q4P]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You nailed it in several points there. I'll expand.

Noise: anyone who talks about exhausts 'fixing' the sound has a serious issue. The reason is sounds like a turbo car is because it's turbocharged. There is not one turbocharged car in the entire world that sounds anything like a high performance NA one. Not one.
Car and Driver did a comparo a while back on the GTR, M3 and Porsche Turbo. If you watch the video, it's evident that the only one that sounds like a sports car is the M3. The GTR and Porsche sound like absolutely nothing. BORING!

Experience: this is the whole point of the cars. It's nice to take XX seconds to reach YY speed, but in real life what matters is the experience.
This new car has much, much better numbers than the E60 M5. That was expected. It also sounds like a turbo car, with the same uninspiring note as all the rest of the turbo cars. This is an important part of the experience.
A 335 with boltons is way faster than an E46 M3, but after driving both I had no doubt in my mind: M3. It actually sounds and feels like a sports car. The 335 feels and sounds like a more powerful version of a 330: a civilian car.

The US: And here is the best part of all. I'm appalled when I read about people whining about the lack of torque of the V10 of the desire to have torque monster. What for exactly? On the V10, after pressing the throttle 10 consecutive seconds you can end up in jail.
Hell, I've lived most of my life in Europe, and there I can see the alllure of a retardedly powerful car that sounds like a vacuum cleaner... but here? Come on guys. Here you'll spend almost all the time in the M at 80 mph, and won't even have a nice V10 wail to accompany you.


I'm also surprised when I read all the 'See? The new one is faster than the old one!!'. Yeah duh!! No one ever said it would be slower. By making a turbo M5 they have gone a good ways towards killing the excitement of an M car. Several reviews have already mentioned this (Fifth Gear, Car and Driver), but even if they hadn't, it's still obvious.


I guess the underlying issue is that a lot of people on the boards know little about cars. It's disturbing to read all the 'put an exhaust' comments here and elsewhere, very disturbing. Regarding the 'lack of torque': that's what a special engine has. Low torque, high rpm screamers belong in sports cars. Turbo engines, no matter how powerful they are, are great for soccer moms and others who don't know what a gearshift is.


SYT_Shadow

I won't even attempt to answer this because you are delusional. You just said that turbo cars are for soccer moms and they belong there. In other words WRC and the entire rally world doesn't count; neither does F1 because it may be going to Turbo DI 4 cylinder motors in 2013 (the ultimate racing development and ultimate and most advanced automotive performance sport in the entire world where even BMW Sauber doesn't do so well)...

Then you say the GTR sounds boring... lol One of the most advanced cars in the world that will run circles around an M3, M5 and every other BMW ever made and has the grip of glue on all four tires and you are complaining about its sound which is heavenly especially with LC engaged. hahah

Then you say lack of torque... No one said lack of torque; the M5 has plenty at 380 but its incomparable to having over 500 at such a low RPM range which will definitely add to the experience of the car.

The only real complaint I see here is the sound because there is nothing worse about this new car compared to the old one. If that's your only complaint and you think sound makes or breaks a car; then you had much better choices than an M3 or M5.

Originally Posted by Ateam

If you are getting to the point of which other way could bmw feasibly have gone? Well I agree with you financially it makes a lot of sense for the next cycle of cars BUT M cars have never been financially good moves to many degrees.

The last e60 and e90 M's were probably some of the most expensive (probably the most expensive) bmw ever had to spend on engineering. I am pretty positive they do not make a big profit on their m cars when it is all said and done comparing R and D etc. With that said, by making and keeping the "m" brand something special, something that has kept winning time and time and time and time again in car mags-meaning bmw is plastered front and center on everything as "win" "the best" etc. The payoff was 10000 fold in marketing and sales of all of their other brands. It also made for very loyal drivers, the most loyal in the business. So although it was not always the most cost effectively built car, it served them well for many years in the overall picture.

The e90 m3 would have been WAY cheaper to just use a tuned N54 engine in there or a variety of the N54 or something else that was already developed but instead it developed a speciific engine just for the one car. Same for the e60 M5.

So back to my point-I think the route bmw should have gone with the new M cars is have TWO engine options. A traditional NA engine and a TT engine for those that really want the gas savings and torque.

The cost of two engines could have been easily offset by the fact the TT engine cost them nothing since it was already implemented in the million other M cars out there-x5/6M and more to come.

So while this option would be more costly to implement-it would continue the longstanding benefit that was had by generations past-the ongoing winning mag articles and the king of all sports cars. The true enthusiasts would have stuck around because they could still get the forumula that worked for them.

This would be a la porsche-they offer the turbo but offer the gt3 and carrera as well.

Simple- M3, M5 and M6 should have a high revving HA engine and turbo.

This would also really have neglible impact on their fleet mpg numbers since so so few people would opt for the NA engine in the scheme of things that it really would not make a dent. Although few would pick it-it would be an important few-the enthusiasts and performance testing/marketing world-which like I said is something that I feel has been tossed aside by bmw which IMO will come back to bite them in years to come.

Your best answer to my question is that BMW should have offered the new BMW M models with 2 engine options? One for the purists and one for the street turbo guys... lol

I know why you don't work at BMW.

[clar]

Sound is subjective. Some prefer the high pitch whine of the V10, whereas some prefer the more muscular burble of the V8 twin turbo. While i think the V8 in my E92 M3 is nice, it's still not something to really worship. The sounds to die for are still limited to the upper echelon of the super cars. Some have remarked that the V10 sounds a little out of place in a big executive car like the 5. I tend to agree with that. Some say M represents this and that...The truth is that M stands for *whatever*, but only in your mind. They have no dogma and that is coming from the horse's mouth. I will be keeping the M3 when my M5 arrives. Let's see how the 2 compare...

[mdh]

Originally Posted by Ateam

Couldn't be more wrong. They great thing about her reviews is she epitomizes what 99 percent of M owners look for in an M car-that "aural pleasure" that she so nicely sums it up as. That "aural" pleasure she speaks of incorporates all of those objective things like steering, sound, feel, cornering etc etc into one emotional feeling-if it has the "aural" sensation than the car has all of the stuff just "right" If it does not than perhaps on paper it has things right but it does not become a situation of past M's where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts-the true measure of an M car IMO.

Her reviews are great because they are not the same objective comments done by 99 percnet of other reviewers.

Bottom line is this car is great on paper, great when measuring any objective stats in real life but not great when comes to the "experience" you get when driving it.

Go buy a Z06 and you get that hp,less weight and better in all objective performance measures at a faction of the cost.

Well, let's just say we disagree.

How did you get all that from:

'...sounds a bit dull', and '...not getting much aural pleasure.', '...may not sound as raunchy, and doesn't excite me quite as much'

Aural is 'of or relating to the sense of hearing'. Nothing to do with any of the other aspects you mentioned. There's not one criticism of the chassis, steering, feel, or cornering in her review. You've just assumed that's what she's 'feeling'.

What she's actually saying is that it doesn't sound as good as the E60, and for whatever reason (make up what you think she's thinking here), she doesn't find it as 'exciting'. Maybe you just have to know her really well, but I prefer to have a reviewer that actually says what they're thinking. That's why I think it's one of the worst reviews I've seen.

[Ateam]

Originally Posted by Questforpower

I won't even attempt to answer this because you are delusional. You just said that turbo cars are for soccer moms and they belong there. In other words WRC and the entire rally world doesn't count; neither does F1 because it may be going to Turbo DI 4 cylinder motors in 2013 (the ultimate racing development and ultimate and most advanced automotive performance sport in the entire world where even BMW Sauber doesn't do so well)...

Then you say the GTR sounds boring... lol One of the most advanced cars in the world that will run circles around an M3, M5 and every other BMW ever made and has the grip of glue on all four tires and you are complaining about its sound which is heavenly especially with LC engaged. hahah

Then you say lack of torque... No one said lack of torque; the M5 has plenty at 380 but its incomparable to having over 500 at such a low RPM range which will definitely add to the experience of the car.

The only real complaint I see here is the sound because there is nothing worse about this new car compared to the old one. If that's your only complaint and you think sound makes or breaks a car; then you had much better choices than an M3 or M5.



Your best answer to my question is that BMW should have offered the new BMW M models with 2 engine options? One for the purists and one for the street turbo guys... lol

I know why you don't work at BMW.

Porsche does it so if it is good enough for them than its good enough for me and bmw

You sure have a lot of imput on the M cars which you keep saying how much you do not like. You also have never owned one yet chime in with every discussion on an M car? Why? If the 335 is so great why don't you stick to the 335 chit chat?

[Wongton]

almost 30 mpg?! thats amazing

[luis_m3]

I just wasted 15min of my life reading a whole bunch of bs in this threat.
Back to the main theme; I like the numbers on the new M5, the sound is not that bad, it looks good IMO... but in the end, I'm going to have to test drive it anyways.

[M-Power111]

Originally Posted by luis_m3

I just wasted 15min of my life reading a whole bunch of bs in this threat.
Back to the main theme; I like the numbers on the new M5, the sound is not that bad, it looks good IMO... but in the end, I'm going to have to test drive it anyways.

[m balla]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You nailed it in several points there. I'll expand.

Noise: anyone who talks about exhausts 'fixing' the sound has a serious issue. The reason is sounds like a turbo car is because it's turbocharged. There is not one turbocharged car in the entire world that sounds anything like a high performance NA one. Not one.
Car and Driver did a comparo a while back on the GTR, M3 and Porsche Turbo. If you watch the video, it's evident that the only one that sounds like a sports car is the M3. The GTR and Porsche sound like absolutely nothing. BORING!

Experience: this is the whole point of the cars. It's nice to take XX seconds to reach YY speed, but in real life what matters is the experience.
This new car has much, much better numbers than the E60 M5. That was expected. It also sounds like a turbo car, with the same uninspiring note as all the rest of the turbo cars. This is an important part of the experience.
A 335 with boltons is way faster than an E46 M3, but after driving both I had no doubt in my mind: M3. It actually sounds and feels like a sports car. The 335 feels and sounds like a more powerful version of a 330: a civilian car.

The US: And here is the best part of all. I'm appalled when I read about people whining about the lack of torque of the V10 of the desire to have torque monster. What for exactly? On the V10, after pressing the throttle 10 consecutive seconds you can end up in jail.
Hell, I've lived most of my life in Europe, and there I can see the alllure of a retardedly powerful car that sounds like a vacuum cleaner... but here? Come on guys. Here you'll spend almost all the time in the M at 80 mph, and won't even have a nice V10 wail to accompany you.


I'm also surprised when I read all the 'See? The new one is faster than the old one!!'. Yeah duh!! No one ever said it would be slower. By making a turbo M5 they have gone a good ways towards killing the excitement of an M car. Several reviews have already mentioned this (Fifth Gear, Car and Driver), but even if they hadn't, it's still obvious.


I guess the underlying issue is that a lot of people on the boards know little about cars. It's disturbing to read all the 'put an exhaust' comments here and elsewhere, very disturbing. Regarding the 'lack of torque': that's what a special engine has. Low torque, high rpm screamers belong in sports cars. Turbo engines, no matter how powerful they are, are great for soccer moms and others who don't know what a gearshift is.


SYT_Shadow

Driving vs owning are two very different things

[datbimmerdoe]

Originally Posted by mundo74

Like the mini skirt

heh heh awwriiight, giggity!

[klammer]

Think it would sit nicely next to it's little brother, but hope they keep the high-rev in the M3. I'd rather drive a sport-bike than a harley...(torque jab) but for the M5 think it will do nicely. What I am most concerned with over all is steering and driving "feel". As long as I'm still connected to the car I'm good, that's all I ask for