2013 F10 M5 vs Cadillac CTS-V by Road and Track (with Video)

[misterbeemer]

Good review! But the new CTS-V is just around the corner. Also, C&D comparison ranked M5 as last against the Audi S6 and Mercedes E63AMG. In their own words: Clean up in aisle five, please. The M5 is an absolute marvel, nevertheless and a beauty!

[e92oholic]

like a corvette with 4 doors lol. I wouldn't want a corvette with 2 doors! And to complain the m5 is to comfy when on the thruway... common BMW put some damn RFT on! lmao

[ATX78703]

best quote was by the engineering editor at the end

"The M5 is the best-handling 7 Series BMW has ever made. Yeah, I know it’s a 5 Series, but it’s just so big, and soft, and comfortable and stomping fast. It’s high-performance luxury at its pinnacle, and for that reason I’ll take the CTS-V."

I personally don't think ppl really cross shop these two vehicles, but sums up a lot of what ppl feel was lost with the e60 to f10 in general.

[lux]

I know the 5er and M5 are more skewed to the luxury side of the equation and have lost some of that sports car feel of the past. Although the car is faster, it doesn't seem to have that "feeling" of driver involvement. Might be too much sound insulation, numb steering, or both? This make me a little scared to see what BMW does with the next generation M3. Faster doesn't always = more fun.

[Russkey]

CTS-V is impressive, but would rather get the new M5.

[monza2t]

I guess I dont understand the need to prove whether one is some fraction of a second faster to 60 when we are ultimately talking about luxury cars that 95% of the people who buy them dont really appreciate the engineering excellence that has gone into both.

For me the choice for a performance BMW would be clear... M5... E36 edition... for sheer dynamic purity (no fluffy bologna, just well thought out basic mechanics).

For the record, I have driven a coworkers 09 CTS-V, and test drove an E60 M5, and both were just fantastic. Its really a very close argument IMHO. I would be content with both.

[ORIGIN M.]

I'll take the ///M5 all day any day...

[Em/1]

Originally Posted by juddholland

Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.

I was getting a little cranky and then I saw what you drive.

[Vinsanity12]

Originally Posted by juddholland

Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.

Greatness

[muskamatt]

Originally Posted by Vinsanity12

Greatness

The defenses of a snobby, arrogant, blinded group of individuals. I think I might delete my app. I like my BMW but to hear criticism like this is pathetic.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by juddholland

Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.

Say what ever you want but that fucking Cadillac is a better M car in the traditional sense than the new M5 is.

That being said it would be an internal struggle to buy one. Its just too American for me.

[Andrey]

Originally Posted by SleepTight

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co...cadillac-cts-v

It's a very good comparison. And, of course, it's closer than many here would have been willing to admit. The CTS-V's simpler, less sophisticated approach makes an excellent contrast--spotlighting all the strengths and weaknesses of the F10 M5.

I will note that R&T's decision to obtain the rarest of rare M5s with a manual transmission in order to go manual to manual with the almost equally rare Cadillac Tremec TR-6060 six-speed appears to be an attempt to skew the results. A comparison of the M5's 7-speed MDCT with the V's ancient (and achingly slow) GML80 6-speed automatic would have resulted in a far greater point total for the M5.

Now before you all go leaping to the defense of the M5, let me tell you that my 2010 CTS-V is essentially identical to the 2012 CTS-V test vehicle (with the exception of the aforementioned manual transmission) and I've had a deposit down and been waiting for a production number on an M5 since April. Why did I do that when I already own a car that's 95% of what the M5 is with an interest free loan courtesy of the American taxpayer? Simple, because I can afford the best, and the M5 is that. As a day-to-day driver and an incredibly sophisticated luxury sedan that also happens to double as a close to full-tilt race car when I get bored, there is no comparison--the M5 is the King.

I love what the V stands for as GM's last desperate attempt to take on the world's best prior to bankruptcy and somehow pulling it off, and I still get a big grin on my face when I put my foot down in the V. But I can't wait to trade in my V and drive off in my new M5.

Very well said!! I can tell you were honest,
Cars like that cannot be judged just by the numbers they produce, although BMW makes better numbers. As an Overall car BMW is like you said sir a lot better!!!!
BMW has a great reputation as well, GM has a mismanagment reputation, and as any educated person can tell it will affect the final product.
GM built that car while it was Bankrupt, i Don't buy a product from any company that is broke!!!
CTS-V somewhat reminds me of E39 M5, simple, raw, very little in the way of electronics, where ne m5 is a luxury car that can be a race car with a push of the button. Like Jeremy clarkson said " The most boring car in the world, but with the push of the button, the most exciting car in the world."
BMW 4ever

[Andrey]

Originally Posted by AstonMartin

Look at that price point! The E39 M5 was priced around that area when new and to be honest, I'd rather pay $71,000 for a new E39 M5 if I could find one today.

ME TOOO!! i would soooo buy new e39 m5!!!!!! that is the ultimate classic in my mind!!!

[BMW BRAD]

Originally Posted by juddholland

Forgive me for being a snob, but it's a fucking Cadillac. It looks like the vomit of the lovechild of a 90s rapper and a geometry teacher. Developed dynamically at the Nürburgring, it is decidedly a German car in the ugliest and gaudiest clothing. Calling it an American car is a disgrace to the German engineering that designed that track. It only speaks to the fact that there isn't a place in America that can develop such a dynamically proficient car.

Its target buyers are wannabe Mercedes owners who are chained to patriotism (and therefore ultimate stupidity) by their "great-great-grandpapi's" contribution to the Confederate Army during the Civil War.

It doesn't matter that it can compete dynamically, because if you buy one, you probably can't compete with a book.

^^^^^^ WOW! Well put! I totally agree..... I dont know if I could have put it any better! ^^^^^^

[monza2t]

i Don't buy a product from any company that is broke!!!

This statement make little sense. ANY major auto manufacturer around today has had some period in modern times where they had financial troubles. For BMW that was in the early 60's, nearly on the verge of liquidation. Recently they cocked up good with the boondoggle that was Rover Group, a $10B mistake. They didnt go broke, but it was royally stupid decision making.

[Kayani_1]

Having driven a CTS-V sedan and Coupe on track. I can say that it is a very nice performance machine. I would not mind having a CTS-V coupe in my garage. I have a lot of respect for Caddy to make a decent performance machine at a good price point. Hopefully they can make next one even better.

However, there are some draw backs to the CTS-V that they did mention and few that they ignored or forgot to mention.

1. The most obvious CTS-V auto sucks. Anybody buying a CTS-V should avoid it. Unless off course they do not know how to drive stick.

2. The CTS-V interior is not even on par with last M5 much less F10. Sure the interior is not bad for American car. However, it lacks refinement, built quality and for some reason has overly shinny wood trim that looks like fake plastic. Needs improvement to be on par with German/Japanese car makers.

3. The navigation system is also not on par with German or Japanese luxury car makers.

4. The seats are OK but not as good as the one found in M5.

5. Having driven the CTS-V full tilt on track I can tell you the car does not sound like American muscle car. It was a disappointment hearing it while driving it or standing by the pit wall. For being a detuned ZR1 engine this thing should sound far more aggressive. In need of a good exhaust setup. So I do not get why they criticize the M5 in sound department on the inside and not this car.

6. Last but not least two minor issues. One that the gaps between rear/front fenders and tires are huge compared to say M3 or M5 cars. Second, the steering is precise, has plenty of feed back and has nice suede finish. However, it is a bit to light for my taste. I like the heft on BMW hydraulic steering racks.


As for M5 what can I say it is a beast. I am not getting when few people say they expected better. It is a one and a half second quicker around track then a similarly equal powered V8 performance car making 556hp. Now with DCT it would have made the gap even bigger. Just cause Caddy has a useless auto one should not penalize the M5. Because M division has done a fantastic job with their DCT performance transmission.


Also, Road and Track must have lost its mind for giving M5 17.9 points in transmission CTS-V full 20. The M5 clearly has superior transmissions choices (DCT & fairly good 6-spd) overall compared to Caddy with its crappy choices (horrible auto & fairly good 6-spd). I think they must have done this to make it look closer then it was. Come on R&T you guys totally messed up on that one. Exterior looks is an opinion but M5 is better looking then the CTS-V.

[jaehshim]

This somehow tells me how great the CTS-V is, rather than the "expected" M5 specs. Look how close the spec points are, especially in performance.
This shows how close the other companies are catching up, while BMW keeps focusing on abusing the "M" brand and putting it on every lineups, even on a diesel.

It is sad because we can clearly see where M is going, committing to larger marketing rather than being a true sport lineup.
M brand must srat building real sports cars, must have guts to build cars like Toyota did with their FR-S.

[visualguy]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Also, Road and Track must have lost its mind for giving M5 17.9 points in transmission CTS-V full 20. The M5 clearly has superior transmissions choices (DCT & fairly good 6-spd) overall compared to Caddy with its crappy choices (horrible auto & fairly good 6-spd). I think they must have done this to make it look closer then it was. Come on R&T you guys totally messed up on that one.

Yes - I was also surprised by the score of 20 for the CTS-V manual transmission. It's not bad - the clutch is fine and the shifter has a pretty good (if a little balky) feel to it. However, the shift pattern is quite bad because this Tremec tranny has Reverse where 5th is located normally. 3rd and 5th are very close which makes it easy to mis-shift between them, and there is also the issue of trying to push it into Reverse when 5th is intended. Bad egonomics in my opinion. Why they did it this way is totally beyond me - makes no sense to me.

Another problem with the CTS-V is its high fuel consumption coupled with a fuel tank which isn't particularly large. The M5 has a lower fuel consumption and a larger fuel tank, so it gives a much better range resulting in fewer trips to the gas station.

I like the CTS-V overall, but I think the M5 is worth the extra money.

[boostaholic786]

Im leaning more towards the M5 since I already put a deposit on one but after this review I want to buy a luxury sports sedan but I also want to be able feel the balance of the car so I know Im pushing the limits. The new M5 seems (in this review) that it does everything for you almost.... I want a car that I can be comfortable in but when I want to go play, I want to feel the car coming loose so I can have a feeling to feather the throttle to pull out of it. I love that feeling of being able to toss the car around and be so to say "connected to the road" . The CTS-V HAS the most superb suspension with its magnetic ride control... I mean come on guys Ferrari bought it from them.. That must mean something. I hope the M5 gives me that road feedback when its on full track mode....

[vladberca]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Having driven a CTS-V sedan and Coupe on track. I can say that it is a very nice performance machine. I would not mind having a CTS-V coupe in my garage. I have a lot of respect for Caddy to make a decent performance machine at a good price point. Hopefully they can make next one even better.

However, there are some draw backs to the CTS-V that they did mention and few that they ignored or forgot to mention.

1. The most obvious CTS-V auto sucks. Anybody buying a CTS-V should avoid it. Unless off course they do not know how to drive stick.

2. The CTS-V interior is not even on par with last M5 much less F10. Sure the interior is not bad for American car. However, it lacks refinement, built quality and for some reason has overly shinny wood trim that looks like fake plastic. Needs improvement to be on par with German/Japanese car makers.

3. The navigation system is also not on par with German or Japanese luxury car makers.

4. The seats are OK but not as good as the one found in M5.

5. Having driven the CTS-V full tilt on track I can tell you the car does not sound like American muscle car. It was a disappointment hearing it while driving it or standing by the pit wall. For being a detuned ZR1 engine this thing should sound far more aggressive. In need of a good exhaust setup. So I do not get why they criticize the M5 in sound department on the inside and not this car.

6. Last but not least two minor issues. One that the gaps between rear/front fenders and tires are huge compared to say M3 or M5 cars. Second, the steering is precise, has plenty of feed back and has nice suede finish. However, it is a bit to light for my taste. I like the heft on BMW hydraulic steering racks.


As for M5 what can I say it is a beast. I am not getting when few people say they expected better. It is a one and a half second quicker around track then a similarly equal powered V8 performance car making 556hp. Now with DCT it would have made the gap even bigger. Just cause Caddy has a useless auto one should not penalize the M5. Because M division has done a fantastic job with their DCT performance transmission.


Also, Road and Track must have lost its mind for giving M5 17.9 points in transmission CTS-V full 20. The M5 clearly has superior transmissions choices (DCT & fairly good 6-spd) overall compared to Caddy with its crappy choices (horrible auto & fairly good 6-spd). I think they must have done this to make it look closer then it was. Come on R&T you guys totally messed up on that one. Exterior looks is an opinion but M5 is better looking then the CTS-V.

Very well put

[johntomferg]

Let's face it, if BMW wants to truly win this comparison then simply lower the price to closer match the cts-v. *We* the consumers won't feel hurt at all if they can retroactively apply that to our orders...

As for the manual - I love the fact that the manual is offered and I completely get the personal preference issue of wanting to use a manual on off the track. I suspect that both manuals will be 'rare birds' at the end of the day. However, I don't recall seeing any other review that used the manual, so kudos to the review staff for getting one.

Speaking as a person in need of headroom in a vehicle, their is one compromise bandwidth that I cannot easily compromise upon for any vehicle that isn't a rental: headroom.

http://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/cts-...tyle=101397609
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m5/2013/f...tyle=101212619

Now, while the CTS isn't a slouch on headroom compared to other cars like GM's Camaro, it is still impactful.

M5 CTS-V
40.5 38.8

Now, when you are a track day star (no I am not) and want to be tall and have room for that track day helmet....


To the rudeness expressed in JuddHolland's posts (and I sincerely hope it was tongue in cheek or nestled in the deep throws of sarcasm): it not only doesn't 'impress', but it detracts from whatever the core mesg may have been. I'm kinda surprise the forum moderators were so tolerant. But, I'm new here with an M5 on order, so perhaps I won't be as surprised next time.

[DSB335d]

Great write up. I've never been a fan of any American cars; other than say a '70 Charger
I would choose the M5 over any Cadillac.