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      05-20-2019, 02:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post
Well that only makes sense if a car as ugly as the Leaf suddenly jumps $14,000 for no reason.

Meanwhile Tesla can't even keep up the demand for the Model 3 right now....with people waiting a year for their build.
I can order a Model 3 today and have it delivered to the East Coast in two (2) weeks. No one is waiting a year for a build.
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      05-20-2019, 02:42 PM   #46
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The only reason EVs have any market share is due to world-wide government incentives that artificially make a market for them.
And those incentives will remain, drive up production numbers, which will drive down the cost. It's a self driven cycle that will drive EV numbers through the roof until they're the whole market.
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      05-20-2019, 02:48 PM   #47
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The simple convenience and safety of my wife not ever going to a shitty gas station again is appealing. Plus the benefit of me not having to take her car to the gas station for her. Add in only needed infrequent brake jobs (with electronic brakes getting closer, just about no service requirements) and related OTA servicing.

To say that government incentives are the only appeal is supremely off the mark. TX has made it impossible to get the state incentive on a Tesla, yet the damn things are literally everywhere. Federal incentive on Teslas end soon and that will likely have minimal impact on their sales. The Model Y is going to further disrupt the German hold on SUV sales.
So the history of the EV market development went pretty much like this:

Early 1990's ... CARB mandated a certain amount of zero emission vehicles be sold in California by each manufacturer.

Mid-1990's ... GM introduced the EV-1 in California. Dumped the concept because there was no marketplace for EV's other than California.

Mid-2000's ... EV tax credits issued under US energy legislation in trade for carbon fuel industry wants. Carbon Credits invented by Al Gore.

EV marketplace dominated by rising Tesla, financially supported by federal tax credits and carbon credits sales to other corporations.

Go ask Henry Ford how much help he got from the Federal government to start the US automotive industry.
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      05-20-2019, 02:52 PM   #48
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And those incentives will remain, drive up production numbers, which will drive down the cost. It's a self driven cycle that will drive EV numbers through the roof until they're the whole market.
So you agree, the EV market was artificially created by Government and needs to be sustained by Government and politics.
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      05-20-2019, 03:01 PM   #49
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So you agree, the EV market was artificially created by Government and needs to be sustained by Government and politics.
I don't agree with that, no. I think EVs are the future and for good reason. They'd sell even without the government incentives, but certainly not as well.

Curious though. What do you have against EVs?
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      05-20-2019, 03:05 PM   #50
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So you agree, the EV market was artificially created by Government and needs to be sustained by Government and politics.


Here we go...

There are so many industries with subsidies including oil, medicine, health care, coal, agriculture, it's not even a valid argument.
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      05-20-2019, 03:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I can order a Model 3 today and have it delivered to the East Coast in two (2) weeks. No one is waiting a year for a build.
Wow...I just read the other day that people are waiting 6 months to a year for their order. Maybe it was an older article....I'll try to find it

I'd still much rather have a used Model S over the Model 3 which I can get today if I wanted(or should I say had the money)

Regardless, the point is the market is still there and very much alive and not going away anytime soon
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      05-20-2019, 03:56 PM   #52
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The only reason EVs have any market share is due to world-wide government incentives that artificially make a market for them.
Funny you should say that. What the world wide government incentives spent for EVs pale in comparison with what the U.S. have spent to incentivize the continued purchase and use of gasoline powered ICE cars.

I'm not a beatnik, but even at $4.xx per gallon we pay but a fraction of what other countries pay for gas, because we've already spent multiples of trillion dollars and thousands of U.S. lives for the privilege to pay less for a gallon of gas than milk (for some parts of the country, at least).

At the end of the day, the "incentives" to purchase EVs is a drop in the bucket by comparison.
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      05-20-2019, 04:11 PM   #53
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So you agree, the EV market was artificially created by Government and needs to be sustained by Government and politics.


Here we go...

There are so many industries with subsidies including oil, medicine, health care, coal, agriculture, it's not even a valid argument.
Biodiesel too. Part of my pay relies on that.
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      05-20-2019, 04:29 PM   #54
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So you agree, the EV market was artificially created by Government and needs to be sustained by Government and politics.
was his statement too long to read until the end?
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      05-20-2019, 04:41 PM   #55
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I don't agree with that, no. I think EVs are the future and for good reason. They'd sell even without the government incentives, but certainly not as well.

Curious though. What do you have against EVs?
Because someone came up with the (marketing) idea EVs are going to save the planet. They are used as a political weapon.

From an engineering perspective I find them interesting and advantageous in some respects.

But as a political tool, nope.
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      05-20-2019, 04:49 PM   #56
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Here we go...

There are so many industries with subsidies including oil, medicine, health care, coal, agriculture, it's not even a valid argument.
My issue is with government incentive to start the EV market in earnest. Sustainment of those industries you've mention is a different subject matter related to the complexities of international trade, foreign business practices, etc., not to save the planet.
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      05-20-2019, 04:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post
Wow...I just read the other day that people are waiting 6 months to a year for their order. Maybe it was an older article....I'll try to find it

I'd still much rather have a used Model S over the Model 3 which I can get today if I wanted(or should I say had the money)

Regardless, the point is the market is still there and very much alive and not going away anytime soon
Just go on Tesla's website and start the Model 3 order process, it tells you the estimated delivery date in weeks.
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      05-20-2019, 04:58 PM   #58
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Biodiesel too. Part of my pay relies on that.
Eating McDonalds french fries I suppose
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      05-20-2019, 05:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post


Here we go...

There are so many industries with subsidies including oil, medicine, health care, coal, agriculture, it's not even a valid argument.
My issue is with government incentive to start the EV market in earnest. Sustainment of those industries you've mention is a different subject matter related to the complexities of international trade, foreign business practices, etc., not to save the planet.
Even if you don't think it's "saving the planet", it's economically and practically going to be more and more viable and indeed necessary in the future. It's technology that will improve our day to day.

I get that most conservatives are against the EV for several reasons:

Economic ties to traditional energy and oil.

Validating the EV as an environmental savior admits that there is a problem which conservatives have been denying for decades.

Fear is something conservatives generally use to control the masses and now it's being used for a progressive movement, which is doubly insulting.

The idea that we are able to adversely affect our environment is unsettling for a lot of people. The responsibility we have to our environment is too heavy a burden for a lot of people who are used to having the perception of control. Therefor they reject it because it attacks their very identity. Narcissism is the main culprit and it's one of the reasons if, not the biggest, that Trump has the position he has regarding progressive environmental initiatives. To admit that we are at the mercy of the environment is too damaging to the ego.
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      05-20-2019, 05:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Funny you should say that. What the world wide government incentives spent for EVs pale in comparison with what the U.S. have spent to incentivize the continued purchase and use of gasoline powered ICE cars.

I'm not a beatnik, but even at $4.xx per gallon we pay but a fraction of what other countries pay for gas, because we've already spent multiples of trillion dollars and thousands of U.S. lives for the privilege to pay less for a gallon of gas than milk (for some parts of the country, at least).

At the end of the day, the "incentives" to purchase EVs is a drop in the bucket by comparison.
I'm not a Luddite either. I'm just being realistic and stating facts as they have played out. The availability of gasoline is related to the existence of the petrochemical industry, which supports a world-wide economic system. If the argument is the blood for oil crap, then we probably pay more per gallon; it's just the tax bill is applied different. The Europeans get to tax the crap out of fuel because we pay their defense bills.

We can argue this all day long. But the facts are, the US Government has incentivized the creation of the EV market solely for the political purpose of environmentalism. It is just a statement of fact.
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      05-20-2019, 05:26 PM   #61
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Even if you don't think it's "saving the planet", it's economically and practically going to be more and more viable and indeed necessary in the future. It's technology that will improve our day to day.

I get that most conservatives are against the EV for several reasons:

Economic ties to traditional energy and oil.

Validating the EV as an environmental savior admits that there is a problem which conservatives have been denying for decades.

Fear is something conservatives generally use to control the masses and now it's being used for a progressive movement, which is doubly insulting.

The idea that we are able to adversely affect our environment is unsettling for a lot of people. The responsibility we have to our environment is too heavy a burden for a lot of people who are used to having the perception of control. Therefor they reject it because it attacks their very identity. Narcissism is the main culprit and it's one of the reasons if, not the biggest, that Trump has the position he has regarding progressive environmental initiatives. To admit that we are at the mercy of the environment is too damaging to the ego.
I'm not going to engage in name calling and debate who espouses fear and who are science deniers; it's just too easy to provide counterpoint to what you said. I just stated a fact about the workings of the EV market. It's not a big deal. I like the technology, hell I probably used an EV before you did (1973). From an engineering perspective I think electric drivetrains are more efficient. The cost and political baggage is what remains unjustified for me.

But I must say you must not understand the meaning of Narcissism.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 05-20-2019 at 05:50 PM..
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      05-20-2019, 06:37 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Even if you don't think it's "saving the planet", it's economically and practically going to be more and more viable and indeed necessary in the future. It's technology that will improve our day to day.

I get that most conservatives are against the EV for several reasons:

Economic ties to traditional energy and oil.

Validating the EV as an environmental savior admits that there is a problem which conservatives have been denying for decades.

Fear is something conservatives generally use to control the masses and now it's being used for a progressive movement, which is doubly insulting.

The idea that we are able to adversely affect our environment is unsettling for a lot of people. The responsibility we have to our environment is too heavy a burden for a lot of people who are used to having the perception of control. Therefor they reject it because it attacks their very identity. Narcissism is the main culprit and it's one of the reasons if, not the biggest, that Trump has the position he has regarding progressive environmental initiatives. To admit that we are at the mercy of the environment is too damaging to the ego.
I'm not going to engage in name calling and debate who espouses fear and who are science deniers; it's just too easy to provide counterpoint to what you said. I just stated a fact about the workings of the EV market. It's not a big deal. I like the technology, hell I probably used an EV before you did (1973). From an engineering perspective I think electric drivetrains are more efficient. The cost and political baggage is what remains unjustified for me.

But I must say you must not understand the meaning of Narcissism.
Apologies, no name calling intended. I don't think being a conservative is considered name calling nor derogatory. As for the narcissism that was directed at conservative Trump supporters who fit that description. Narcissism fits the bill very nicely for some or most of those who don't think we can adversely affect the environment because acknowledging fear isn't necessarily good for the ego of a narcissist. We all know Trump is a narcissist because no one is a bigger xyz than him in the world for everything that he claims. He is also a conservative and he represents his base very very well by his own admission for which he takes a lot of credit for.

I don't know if you fit that description or not and I'm not insinuating you do in any way whatsoever. I am merely pointing out a personality type that inexplicably deny the negative environmental impact we are responsible for.
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      05-20-2019, 06:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Funny you should say that. What the world wide government incentives spent for EVs pale in comparison with what the U.S. have spent to incentivize the continued purchase and use of gasoline powered ICE cars.

I'm not a beatnik, but even at $4.xx per gallon we pay but a fraction of what other countries pay for gas, because we've already spent multiples of trillion dollars and thousands of U.S. lives for the privilege to pay less for a gallon of gas than milk (for some parts of the country, at least).

At the end of the day, the "incentives" to purchase EVs is a drop in the bucket by comparison.
I'm not a Luddite either. I'm just being realistic and stating facts as they have played out. The availability of gasoline is related to the existence of the petrochemical industry, which supports a world-wide economic system. If the argument is the blood for oil crap, then we probably pay more per gallon; it's just the tax bill is applied different. The Europeans get to tax the crap out of fuel because we pay their defense bills.

We can argue this all day long. But the facts are, the US Government has incentivized the creation of the EV market solely for the political purpose of environmentalism. It is just a statement of fact.
They have incentivized oil for the purpose of profit. Which cause is more just?
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      05-20-2019, 06:53 PM   #64
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Biodiesel too. Part of my pay relies on that.
Eating McDonalds french fries I suppose
Doesn't hurt. Increases the supply of used cooking oil. But biodiesel is currently federally subsidized at a buck a gallon.
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      05-20-2019, 07:06 PM   #65
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Not sure I've seen anyone mention a diesel option. I drive a 328D. My commute is 15hwy miles to and from work in LA. I'm averaging between 38-42mpg per tank. I go against traffic, so most of my commute is in the 65-80mph range.
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      05-20-2019, 07:20 PM   #66
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Not sure I've seen anyone mention a diesel option. I drive a 328D. My commute is 15hwy miles to and from work in LA. I'm averaging between 38-42mpg per tank. I go against traffic, so most of my commute is in the 65-80mph range.
Funny you should mention that.

The impetus for us to look into trading the 335D for a Tesla isn’t that the diesel is not economical or fun to drive. Far from it. It is the most rewarding car in the garage if you factor in fuel economy, because I have on occasion taken the mighty 335D to the track, and the amount of torque of how LITTLE fuel you use, or the smiles per gallon, can’t be beat.

Not that you asked, but the reason behind the research into alternatives to the diesel?

California SMOG laws. The 335D had some issues with the NOx sensor and urea injection system and DPF regen. Without $8,000 in repairs that we were fortunate to avoid due to knowing people at the right places, it would have NEVER passed smog. Not without the $8,000 repairs penalty.

Chicken or the egg. CA has stringent smog testing, BMW put in a bunch of expensive to repair systems to make sure it complies to SMOG regulations, said parts break and you can’t pass smog. Not without forking over more money than the car’s worth.

The 335D is an amazing car, when it works. I’m sure the 328D is amazeballs too. Until you need to replace the urea tank or NOx sensor or any of the smog related parts.
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