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      02-24-2019, 03:55 PM   #1
Skyman2345
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Carbahn Stage 2 S63tu Engines ---- issues?

Hey Guys,

Just got a Carbahn / Steve Dinan Stage 2 S63TU engine to replace my blown stock motor in my M6. It's not making power. I have only run into one other person who has one and is having similar issues. We both had Pure Stage 2 turbos.

The car has ported heads with turned cams for fuel pressure. The turbos were maxing out at full duty cycle and the car only ran 12.5@119 basically stock power.

Wondering if anyone else out there can help shed some light?

Thanks
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      02-25-2019, 12:00 AM   #2
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This is the wrong forum but I'm sure someone will move it soon.

What tune do you have on it?
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      02-25-2019, 03:29 AM   #3
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      02-27-2019, 12:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
This is the wrong forum but I'm sure someone will move it soon.

What tune do you have on it?

Mission performance... that maybe the issue. My clutches failed though so I am addressing that first now.
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      02-27-2019, 02:30 PM   #5
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What type of fuel are you running, OEM catalytic converters or catless ?
There are various shops across the country using similar configurations and making around 650-700WHP from my understanding with PS2 with built cylinder heads.
Stock heads and PS2, catless, high octane etc are factors.
Fueling is important and if your in California; 91 octane is poor. OEM cats become a restriction etc..
No cars make power in CA on 91 fuel unfortunately regardless the type of car

Last edited by schnell1982; 02-27-2019 at 04:35 PM..
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      02-27-2019, 04:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman2345 View Post
Hey Guys,

Just got a Carbahn / Steve Dinan Stage 2 S63TU engine to replace my blown stock motor in my M6. It's not making power. I have only run into one other person who has one and is having similar issues. We both had Pure Stage 2 turbos.

The car has ported heads with turned cams for fuel pressure. The turbos were maxing out at full duty cycle and the car only ran 12.5@119 basically stock power.

Wondering if anyone else out there can help shed some light?

Thanks
What is carbaun saying about this? If you just got it I'd be surprised if they don't stand behind it
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      02-27-2019, 05:55 PM   #7
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OP and we spoke regarding the issues that he is having with the car. Here is some clarification, for everyone's benefit.

The CarBahn engine is first and foremost designed to be stronger so you can run more boost without a failure. We have lowered compression so you can run more boost and ported heads so it will flow more air when running high boost.

We also increase the flow of the direct injection pumps so you can flow more fuel which again will help you make more power.

That said, the engine itself is not what makes the extra power (vs stock); it enables you to make the power without worry of premature failure. The extra power after the engine is built comes from running more boost and keeping the charge air cool and tuning it correctly with software.

We will leave it up to OP to divulge the remainder of the conversation or not, but thought we should share the reason why we don't believe there is an issue at the engine level.
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      02-27-2019, 06:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarBahn Autoworks View Post
OP and we spoke regarding the issues that he is having with the car. Here is some clarification, for everyone's benefit.

The CarBahn engine is first and foremost designed to be stronger so you can run more boost without a failure. We have lowered compression so you can run more boost and ported heads so it will flow more air when running high boost.

We also increase the flow of the direct injection pumps so you can flow more fuel which again will help you make more power.

That said, the engine itself is not what makes the extra power (vs stock); it enables you to make the power without worry of premature failure. The extra power after the engine is built comes from running more boost and keeping the charge air cool and tuning it correctly with software.

We will leave it up to OP to divulge the remainder of the conversation or not, but thought we should share the reason why we don't believe there is an issue at the engine level.
Thanks for sharing the information
Can you share the setups have you tested at your facility building these engines ?
"turbo option, catalytic converter, fueling"
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      02-27-2019, 06:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman2345 View Post
Hey Guys,

Just got a Carbahn / Steve Dinan Stage 2 S63TU engine to replace my blown stock motor in my M6. It's not making power. I have only run into one other person who has one and is having similar issues. We both had Pure Stage 2 turbos.

The car has ported heads with turned cams for fuel pressure. The turbos were maxing out at full duty cycle and the car only ran 12.5@119 basically stock power.

Wondering if anyone else out there can help shed some light?

Thanks
Can you comment on the cause of the engine failure? Just asking out of curiosity...I have the X5M with the same engine and like to know if there are things to look out for or it was random.
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      02-27-2019, 06:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell1982 View Post
Thanks for sharing the information
Can you share the setups have you tested at your facility building these engines ?
"turbo option, catalytic converter, fueling"
Yes, right now we have a car on the dyno with the Stage 2 S63 CarBahn engine, Pure Stage 1 turbos, catless DP (we don't do this but car came this way), 93oct gas. 720whp 720wtq. So it is not necessarily an apples to apples comparison but for reference.
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      02-27-2019, 06:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarBahn Autoworks View Post
Yes, right now we have a car on the dyno with the Stage 2 S63 CarBahn engine, Pure Stage 1 turbos, catless DP (we don't do this but car came this way), 93oct gas. 720whp 720wtq. So it is not necessarily an apples to apples comparison but for reference.
Thanks for sharing
Dyno numbers will vary from dyno brand, fueling and data calibrated for the dyno/car etc..
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      03-03-2019, 06:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarBahn Autoworks View Post
OP and we spoke regarding the issues that he is having with the car. Here is some clarification, for everyone's benefit.

The CarBahn engine is first and foremost designed to be stronger so you can run more boost without a failure. We have lowered compression so you can run more boost and ported heads so it will flow more air when running high boost.

We also increase the flow of the direct injection pumps so you can flow more fuel which again will help you make more power.

That said, the engine itself is not what makes the extra power (vs stock); it enables you to make the power without worry of premature failure. The extra power after the engine is built comes from running more boost and keeping the charge air cool and tuning it correctly with software.

We will leave it up to OP to divulge the remainder of the conversation or not, but thought we should share the reason why we don't believe there is an issue at the engine level.
Steve Dinan at Carbahn called me. Great guy, super helpful. Fantastic customer service. Seems like the issue must be in the tuning. The clutches failed right when the car came back so were dealing with that now. Hopefully this can get solved and this car can run and make great power soon.... Been murphys law with this car. Hopefully nothing else breaks.

Really making me appreciate the ease of the RS3 and the power it makes! haha... but the fit/finish and drive quality is nothing compared to the M6.

I am sure the issue will be solved through additional logging. The tuner refused to give us any logs which is weird. So once the clutch issue is sorted out I'll post an update.

Hope to make ~850whp w/ high octane and 700ish on pump.

Thanks again to Carbahn for being so responsive.

Best,
S
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      03-03-2019, 06:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPueblo View Post
Can you comment on the cause of the engine failure? Just asking out of curiosity...I have the X5M with the same engine and like to know if there are things to look out for or it was random.
Absolutely... First engine failure was caused by a bad tuner. Jail Break tuning. They tuned my prior M5 and M6 and both blew engines less than 10k miles later. The guys have vanished. Atleast Bobby did. Matt the other guy claimed they had no business insurance. I never should have gone to such a small time operation. I've now run into others whom engines they blew.

I'm thinking they just cranked the lowend torque WAY too much and bent a rod both times.

The second go around I got a used engine from a junkyard. Supposedly low miles . ... had DME tuning tune it but it wouldn't make much power. I gave up and had it brought back. The motor blew 120 miles into having it back just getting on the freeway. Something clearly was wrong with it.
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      03-04-2019, 07:04 PM   #14
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Sucks to hear of your issues. I thought Mission Performance tuned the other mexico blue m5 with the carbahn motor without issues? But who knows, time moves on and so do tuners. I have an MP tune without issues; he also did my SSP clutches without major issues. Buts its been awhile since I've contacted MP, so dont know where theyre at now; I think he's focusing mainly on 3 series stuff?? good luck getting your car resolved.
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      03-04-2019, 08:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apexlocator View Post
Sucks to hear of your issues. I thought Mission Performance tuned the other mexico blue m5 with the carbahn motor without issues? But who knows, time moves on and so do tuners. I have an MP tune without issues; he also did my SSP clutches without major issues. Buts its been awhile since I've contacted MP, so dont know where theyre at now; I think he's focusing mainly on 3 series stuff?? good luck getting your car resolved.

Mission did tune the other car and it didn't make more than 650whp on high octane w/ stage 2 turbos. He since has moved on to SillyRabbitMotorsport turbos and I don't know where he stands. His opinion (right or wrong) is that he needs a different tune.

My car made 616whp on that low reading dyno. One issue is MP wouldn't even given the logs to our shop who they do business with regularly.

When I got the car back is wasn't making more than low 500's dynojet #'s.
Then the clutch failed so dealing with that first. Draggy did 12.5@118-119. Trap speeds don't lie


SillyRabbit is offering me a great deal on turbos too but right now I'm trying to figure out what to do on clutches. SSP wont even respond and I hear mixed messages on Dodson. I guess I am just going to have to go Dodson here soon.

Best,
S
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      03-04-2019, 11:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by apexlocator View Post
Sucks to hear of your issues. I thought Mission Performance tuned the other mexico blue m5 with the carbahn motor without issues? But who knows, time moves on and so do tuners. I have an MP tune without issues; he also did my SSP clutches without major issues. Buts its been awhile since I've contacted MP, so dont know where theyre at now; I think he's focusing mainly on 3 series stuff?? good luck getting your car resolved.

Mission did tune the other car and it didn't make more than 650whp on high octane w/ stage 2 turbos. He since has moved on to SillyRabbitMotorsport turbos and I don't know where he stands. His opinion (right or wrong) is that he needs a different tune.

My car made 616whp on that low reading dyno. One issue is MP wouldn't even given the logs to our shop who they do business with regularly.

When I got the car back is wasn't making more than low 500's dynojet #'s.
Then the clutch failed so dealing with that first. Draggy did 12.5@118-119. Trap speeds don't lie


SillyRabbit is offering me a great deal on turbos too but right now I'm trying to figure out what to do on clutches. SSP wont even respond and I hear mixed messages on Dodson. I guess I am just going to have to go Dodson here soon.

Best,
S
The new Dodson clutch pack with billet baskets can definitely handle the power, but is not as smooth as SSP.
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      03-05-2019, 07:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
Mission did tune the other car and it didn't make more than 650whp on high octane w/ stage 2 turbos. He since has moved on to SillyRabbitMotorsport turbos and I don't know where he stands. His opinion (right or wrong) is that he needs a different tune.

My car made 616whp on that low reading dyno. One issue is MP wouldn't even given the logs to our shop who they do business with regularly.

When I got the car back is wasn't making more than low 500's dynojet #'s.
Then the clutch failed so dealing with that first. Draggy did 12.5@118-119. Trap speeds don't lie


SillyRabbit is offering me a great deal on turbos too but right now I'm trying to figure out what to do on clutches. SSP wont even respond and I hear mixed messages on Dodson. I guess I am just going to have to go Dodson here soon.

Best,
S

I just got a text from one of old customers informing me about this post, so I think its only fair that we go on here and give everyone another side to this issue.

Let me just start by saying that instead of bashing someone or posting incorrect info about them, you should first reach out, make a phone call or send an email to figure out what is going on and why your car is not performing as it should.

From the start, the shop your car was built at has informed you that you wont be making any serious SAFE power on Cali 91 and stock cats, no matter what else you do to your car. Instead of listening to their advice of either going with proper exhaust or at least using decent fuel, you pushed to get the car done to "your likings". We are not in a business of blowing engines up (and have yet to blow up a single engine), so we error on a side of caution. We never push cars past limits we believe are safe and we don't chase some numbers a customer has stuck in their head. So based on that, your car was tuned to the best compromise between safety and power.

Your car was tuned remotely by us while it was in the shop's possession. We wanted to use decent gas for the dyno, but couldn't since you said you will only run 91. Even on not so good cali gas, your car made decent timing BUT quickly ran into problems with boost. As you see from your own logs, your waste-gate rapidly closes by 6K and boost-actual doesn't come close to boost-target, indicating you have too much back pressure. That is a Mechanical limit of your setup, not a "tune issue". Furthermore, your shop nor you has NEVER requested to see logs, so please don't put up false information unless you are willing to back it up. And just for your reference, here is your log:

https://datazap.me/u/missiontuning/1...7&zoom=126-181


Now lets get into your numbers game: You are stating that your M5 does 12.5 while a stock M5 does 11.4-11.9. So going by that statement, you actually lost power after that build, even though you had enough torque to fry SSP clutches and pushing over 21psi of pressure with 15degrees of timing. Your car did 615whp on a dyno that reads 450whp for stock M5, so thats over 165whp gains, and yet you personally are getting slower trap numbers then a stock car. Something just doesn't ad up here, does it?
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      03-05-2019, 09:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionPerformance View Post
I just got a text from one of old customers informing me about this post, so I think its only fair that we go on here and give everyone another side to this issue.

Let me just start by saying that instead of bashing someone or posting incorrect info about them, you should first reach out, make a phone call or send an email to figure out what is going on and why your car is not performing as it should.

From the start, the shop your car was built at has informed you that you wont be making any serious SAFE power on Cali 91 and stock cats, no matter what else you do to your car. Instead of listening to their advice of either going with proper exhaust or at least using decent fuel, you pushed to get the car done to "your likings". We are not in a business of blowing engines up (and have yet to blow up a single engine), so we error on a side of caution. We never push cars past limits we believe are safe and we don't chase some numbers a customer has stuck in their head. So based on that, your car was tuned to the best compromise between safety and power.

Your car was tuned remotely by us while it was in the shop's possession. We wanted to use decent gas for the dyno, but couldn't since you said you will only run 91. Even on not so good cali gas, your car made decent timing BUT quickly ran into problems with boost. As you see from your own logs, your waste-gate rapidly closes by 6K and boost-actual doesn't come close to boost-target, indicating you have too much back pressure. That is a Mechanical limit of your setup, not a "tune issue". Furthermore, your shop nor you has NEVER requested to see logs, so please don't put up false information unless you are willing to back it up. And just for your reference, here is your log:

https://datazap.me/u/missiontuning/1...7&zoom=126-181


Now lets get into your numbers game: You are stating that your M5 does 12.5 while a stock M5 does 11.4-11.9. So going by that statement, you actually lost power after that build, even though you had enough torque to fry SSP clutches and pushing over 21psi of pressure with 15degrees of timing. Your car did 615whp on a dyno that reads 450whp for stock M5, so thats over 165whp gains, and yet you personally are getting slower trap numbers then a stock car. Something just doesn't ad up here, does it?
Hey Alex is it? There's no sides here. Simply trying to sort something out. I am not blaming you. I am simply sharing info that I have gathered.

I really don't know why you are coming at me (your customer) so aggressively. I am sorry that you feel defensive. Maybe we can reset this conversation to being productive?

I really appreciate you wanting to help and sharing info. That's all I've wanted. I never had your contact info or anything else.

I don't know the correction to a dyno jet on the dyno you used.

Here is what I do know. I heard great things about you guys from Erik who I was working with for nearly 2 years but he is gone.

The only other comparison I've had is another car and I shared his opinion that the tune maybe the issue. That and Steve Dinan's opinion who both said they can't be sure.

Not sure why you are attacking me about "proper exhaust" ... my car is M6 convertible not a M5. So you have something wrong there. Again not trying to cause any friction ... lets just get facts right. I don't like a catless exhaust smell in a convertible.

This car made 670whp on 91 octane w/ a complete stock setup and ran mid 11's before.

I appreciate you taking a conservative approach to not blowing engines because my last tuner that made that power didnt and they blew my engine so kudos to you!!

I was told my car was tuned on the dyno with you on two pulls. Is that not right?!

I did want to tune the car on 91 as a baseline and then my plan was to install a JB4 and adjust for other fuels with that so I had the ability to run 91. Again not sure the criticism here.

I know cars are making well over 700whp w/ stock cats. While limiting it should not be an absolute stopper. Never heard of that before. I am making 700awhp on my audi with a single cat setup, let alone two cats.

Seth told me he requested logs but that you would not give them to him. SO I am not putting up false information but just sharing what I have been told. Seems fair right?

I would love to chat with you so we can get my car making the power it should and I certainly understand what stock cats will do and the limitations of 91 octane.

Lastly... yes my car ran 12.5 @118. The ET is really irrelevant the trap speed is what is key. 118mph is stock if not lower than stock #'s.

The SSP clutches could never be fried from that. Something was slipping like crazy that caused those clutches to fry and warp. Had a long chat w/ Kris @ SSP on this.

You are right. Something isn't adding up. All I can figure now is that either the clutches were slipping as soon as I got the car back or the car isn't making power.

Once I have it back again I can get to evaluating it again.

Really appreciate you reaching out and lets talk directly I would love your assistance (as your customer) in solving this.

Thanks a lot.

Skyler@Geolinks.com is my email. Shoot me an email an we can jump on a call.

Much appreciated.

Best,
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      03-05-2019, 09:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionPerformance View Post
I just got a text from one of old customers informing me about this post, so I think its only fair that we go on here and give everyone another side to this issue.

Let me just start by saying that instead of bashing someone or posting incorrect info about them, you should first reach out, make a phone call or send an email to figure out what is going on and why your car is not performing as it should.

From the start, the shop your car was built at has informed you that you wont be making any serious SAFE power on Cali 91 and stock cats, no matter what else you do to your car. Instead of listening to their advice of either going with proper exhaust or at least using decent fuel, you pushed to get the car done to "your likings". We are not in a business of blowing engines up (and have yet to blow up a single engine), so we error on a side of caution. We never push cars past limits we believe are safe and we don't chase some numbers a customer has stuck in their head. So based on that, your car was tuned to the best compromise between safety and power.

Your car was tuned remotely by us while it was in the shop's possession. We wanted to use decent gas for the dyno, but couldn't since you said you will only run 91. Even on not so good cali gas, your car made decent timing BUT quickly ran into problems with boost. As you see from your own logs, your waste-gate rapidly closes by 6K and boost-actual doesn't come close to boost-target, indicating you have too much back pressure. That is a Mechanical limit of your setup, not a "tune issue". Furthermore, your shop nor you has NEVER requested to see logs, so please don't put up false information unless you are willing to back it up. And just for your reference, here is your log:

https://datazap.me/u/missiontuning/1...7&zoom=126-181


Now lets get into your numbers game: You are stating that your M5 does 12.5 while a stock M5 does 11.4-11.9. So going by that statement, you actually lost power after that build, even though you had enough torque to fry SSP clutches and pushing over 21psi of pressure with 15degrees of timing. Your car did 615whp on a dyno that reads 450whp for stock M5, so thats over 165whp gains, and yet you personally are getting slower trap numbers then a stock car. Something just doesn't ad up here, does it?
One last point not sure why you came out here guns blazing and accusing. Just isn't helpful. Seems like that happens way too much on email/internet etc.

I am a very respectful person to those whom are respectful to me and a pretty reasonable and easy customer to work with. I'd like to write off this post and would love to work with you to get a great running car.

Thanks
Skyler
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      03-06-2019, 03:32 AM   #20
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Maybe because that's the 3rd reputable vendor you're low key bad mouthing on here, because you don't know what's wrong with your car?

Starting multiple threads with titles that question a brand's credibility is really not the best way to seek support from them.

Just my $0.02.

Good luck with your build.
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      03-06-2019, 03:50 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolov View Post
Maybe because that's the 3rd reputable vendor you're low key bad mouthing on here, because you don't know what's wrong with your car?

Starting multiple threads with titles that question a brand's credibility is really not the best way to seek support from them.

Just my $0.02.

Good luck with your build.
Seconded, always return to the tuner with problems and give them a chance to put things right.
I will not be tuning mine however it has more than enough for the roads I use.
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      03-06-2019, 10:54 AM   #22
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Lots of cars can make power on 91 octane. Look at the Underground Racing Twin Turbo Lambos making 1,100hp one pump gas but race gas they make 1,500hp. But those lambos are completely different setup than what you are running.

Alex is capable of making a tune that will push out 2,000hp I'm sure but you've got to have the right hardware to support that kind of power. For you, Pure Stage 2's are great but are vastly underpowered for what the Carbahn motor is capable of. In other words they don't work with the Carbahn motor well.

Second is downpipes, you are probably losing about 40whp at the least by sticking with stock catted downpipes, but I understand the difficulties in going catless what with those California Carb laws and now you have the CHP patrolling everywhere just looking to send everyone they can find to the Referee.

Third, is tuning, you can't expect Alex to tune the car to what the hardware is not capable of. And as Alex pointed you his tunes have never destroyed a motor, if you want more risk I would suggest a different tuner, but you might be spending another 30k on a new motor when yours breaks again due to bad tuning.

Lastly, my personal advice, is that you just sell your M6, get what you can for it and get an F90 M5 or an M8 when it comes out. The ZF8 transmission is much more suited to your driving style as is the AWD, trust me you will love it. The ZF8 clutch can handle way more torque than the DCT and you will not need to worry about upgrading it. And the AWD will allow you to just mash on the pedal from a dead stop all day long. I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, it's just that the F90 M5 and it's AWD are so much better for that kind of driving.

In the end high torque and RWD don't go well together in any car design. 1/4 mile times are always going to be slower in these F-Generation cars unless you do some crazy modifying the rear suspension and turn it into a true dragster. AWD is just so much easier if 1/4 mile times are your forte.

Good luck!
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