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      01-19-2020, 04:37 AM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdnno98 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicky dj View Post
Why? An S-line is the worst of all as it's just a trim package. All car manufacturers need to get rid of trim packages. These new MP's M340i, M550i, M850i, XM40i etc. are well engineered machines with locking differentials, track rated suspension, BBK's etc. Pound-for-pound these cars are equivalent to the Audi S' while the actual M Motorsport cars are compared to the RS class. BMW just has tiers "above" that are track friendly such as the M2CS, etc.
Not S-Line..... an S. Like an S5. You have an RS5, an S5, and an A5 possibly with an S-Line package, still not an S5 because the engine is completely different in an S5.
What? You're explaining something already well established.
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      01-19-2020, 08:41 AM   #596
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The difference between current full M and M performance cars seems to be narrowed to superficialities of wider fenders, gothic shaped mirrors and m buttons and more taut suspensions. M suspensions are not even up to scratch as those owners that have the means almost always modified them. The M exhausts are also not that great from factory and need modifications.

S58 is just a modified version of B58 (both have closed decks and forged materials) and are track ready. M850i is more expensive than a lot of M cars.

Reviews have shown that the difference in driving performance between m850i and m8 does not justify the price difference. Carwow guy that had m850i long term before driving m8 said this as well as straightpipes

So what is that special about full Ms compared to current m performance cars ? More track oriented I get it. M performance car engines and suspensions are tuned by the M divisions.

Otherwise nothing.

So those that bought M cars because they thought they were special would sorely be disappointed. However those that bought M cars for 15-20% extra performance would not be disappointed with this grouping

BMW knows the gap between base full M and M performance cars is just too narrow and they are modifying the grouping accordingly
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      01-19-2020, 09:08 AM   #597
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Instead of playing the assignation games, why don't they reintroduce a solid NA engine and hydraulic steering? There's not much "M" feeling left in today's turbo cans, fast and capable no doubt but not engaging and terrible sounding...
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      01-19-2020, 09:16 AM   #598
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Here I am chilling in the last 50i model which does not have the M-performance designation
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      01-19-2020, 09:40 AM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
The writing has been clearly written on the wall for some time
Indeed dilution has been going on for over a decade so I can't see what all the hub-bub is about.

Examples:

E46 M3, M3CSL
E9x M3, M3 Competition, M3 GTS
F8x, M3(4), M(4) Competition, M4 GTS.

The M5 has been getting similar treatment for years and of course more recently the M2.
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      01-19-2020, 09:43 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by nicky dj View Post
Absolutely spot on, that's exactly what I'm saying on everything, and yes I meant chassis reference code.

Yes, the ///M variants will have the highest ceiling, no one here even the MP owners ever questioned that. However, there were some M guys in the thread stating "bespoke" and essence without producing the engineering facts & numbers.

Real M guys, the ones who mod their F80's and F10's know what's up and praise the B58 as an engineering achievement. You go to any prominent tuner from VF Engineering to SSR Performance to Gintani they drool to get to work on the M340i/Supra because they know the engineering characteristics inside/out, just as they do Lamborghini's and McClarens on the daily.

The article premise is are the MP's worthy of the M performance badge? ///M fanboys balk and say no without producing the engineering specifications. From driving experience and engineering numbers I'd personally say, more importantly BMW says, yes.
I just tell those nay-sayers to come to the track and show me that the M-lite doesn't live up to the badge

fwiw - I've debadged my m235i and removed the MP decals it came with standard as a 1/50 MP edition car. I don't care about the badge, I care about the 6MT/LSD, F22 50/50 balanced chassis (mirror to E46 M3 size) and smooth N55 power delivery.
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      01-19-2020, 09:56 AM   #601
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Am I just getting to old and cynical, or am I detecting a lot of insecurity in many BMW users?

Just a thought... an E12 M535i … (hand-finished at BMW Motorsport), before any M3 or M5!

Remember the sedan 'M' history guys!
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      01-19-2020, 10:03 AM   #602
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      01-19-2020, 10:09 AM   #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
Instead of playing the assignation games, why don't they reintroduce a solid NA engine and hydraulic steering? There's not much "M" feeling left in today's turbo cans, fast and capable no doubt but not engaging and terrible sounding...
Hydraulic steering racks are overrated. One more idiotic thing to break and leak.
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      01-19-2020, 10:13 AM   #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
The writing has been clearly written on the wall for some time
Indeed dilution has been going on for over a decade so I can't see what all the hub-bub is about.

Examples:

E46 M3, M3CSL
E9x M3, M3 Competition, M3 GTS
F8x, M3(4), M(4) Competition, M4 GTS.

The M5 has been getting similar treatment for years and of course more recently the M2.
You so called "Dilution"
Started 41 years ago back in 1979 with the E12 M535i, predecessor of the 1984-1988 E28 M5:
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      01-19-2020, 10:31 AM   #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F82Racer View Post
You have no idea about what you are talking about. There's no MP version of 335i, and you've owned one lol.
Actually, there is.
The dealer can install the M Performance exhaust and engine pieces...
https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/...-torque-206371

It may have evolved into something else with the G20 platform, however, it does not make it an M car. G80 will again be a huge jump over that G20MP just like F80 was over my F30 + MP
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      01-19-2020, 10:48 AM   #606
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I can't believe I read all 28 pages. My life is sad I guess but this thread is pretty pathetic. : : :
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      01-19-2020, 10:56 AM   #607
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So last June in the G20 forum - in a manner similar to a Where's Waldo book there was a hunt for M logos, Insignia's etc..on the M340. Current factory count is 22 M on US cars, 24 M on European cars and an additional bonus 8 M available should someone decide to add options and/or accessories. It was all in good humor....here's the link

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1624563
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      01-19-2020, 11:13 AM   #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
The difference between current full M and M performance cars seems to be narrowed to superficialities of wider fenders, gothic shaped mirrors and m buttons and more taut suspensions. M suspensions are not even up to scratch as those owners that have the means almost always modified them. The M exhausts are also not that great from factory and need modifications.

S58 is just a modified version of B58 (both have closed decks and forged materials) and are track ready. M850i is more expensive than a lot of M cars.

Reviews have shown that the difference in driving performance between m850i and m8 does not justify the price difference. Carwow guy that had m850i long term before driving m8 said this as well as straightpipes

So what is that special about full Ms compared to current m performance cars ? More track oriented I get it. M performance car engines and suspensions are tuned by the M divisions.

Otherwise nothing.

So those that bought M cars because they thought they were special would sorely be disappointed. However those that bought M cars for 15-20% extra performance would not be disappointed with this grouping

BMW knows the gap between base full M and M performance cars is just too narrow and they are modifying the grouping accordingly
Don't base comparisons by journalism whole heartedly. Always remember journalism is an opinion.

Make your decisions based upon what's acceptable to you and what is needed aesthetically along with performance thru ones own experience.

How can you speak on whether an M car is worth more or less, than a non M car or not if you have never spent serious time or owned that said car to draw conclusion?

Responding to your engine comparison and major items negated and largely opposite of a N55 and a S55 motor. Utilizing the current f80 M3 in comparison to a M340i for example. An M car utilizes a twin turbo not a single turbo twin scroll and a DCT transmission which is a large reason to separate the two. I could go on but digress.

Sure you can always modify any car to gain better customization but remember BMW designed the M3, M3 Comp, and M3 CS to serve both as a road car and a entry level track car. Most modifications such as Ohlins springs are better but move more towards being track focused.

I own a F80 M3 but am fully aware the M3 CS and Gts give things I do not have and would never feel my car is in comparison or better than the cars upgraded by BMW. I have never spent time with them to have an opinion.

What a consumer spends in relationship to a lower model is up to the consumer.
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      01-19-2020, 11:15 AM   #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drF80 View Post
Actually, there is.
The dealer can install the M Performance exhaust and engine pieces...
https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/...-torque-206371

It may have evolved into something else with the G20 platform, however, it does not make it an M car. G80 will again be a huge jump over that G20MP just like F80 was over my F30 + MP
It's an MP "edition" car which is essentially body/interior mods/MP exhaust and forged wheels. Without the "M" designation from BMW it's still a 335 with "MP Edition package". I think about 250 of those were designated for NA as built, or you could just DIY and save the $$ like many have.
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      01-19-2020, 11:16 AM   #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTPenland View Post
So last June in the G20 forum - in a manner similar to a Where's Waldo book there was a hunt for M logos, Insignia's etc..on the M340. Current factory count is 22 M on US cars, 24 M on European cars and an additional bonus 8 M available should someone decide to add options and/or accessories. It was all in good humor....here's the link

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1624563
You could add these and get the total over 30.

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      01-19-2020, 11:17 AM   #611
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This sums up the argument nicely
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      01-19-2020, 12:00 PM   #612
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MP cars are not full M cars, I think we've all agreed on that (ftmp)

The MP cars with "M" designation in front of the model are worthy of recognition, though, imo (LSD's, Brembo's etc). Their specs on paper don't lie, and the performance gap from an MP --> M is not the in the same camp as the gap from a standard M-badged 3 series to M car.

That said, while we are appreciating the new, we need to still respect the old and official banner on the full M cars. No one should be trying to convince anyone that one is better than the other, unless it's purely performance metrics and stock for stock making all things equal (we know which is the better performer at this level). Sure you can take an M-lite and make into a track star, and could do the same with an M car... At the end of the day, people should be doing what makes them happy, not to please an internet audience.

D
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      01-19-2020, 12:13 PM   #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corn18 View Post
You could add these and get the total over 30.

dear lord my eyes hurt and I'm not really sure what I am looking at. Please oh please tell me whatever they are they are not an oem accessory or an actual BMW licensed product
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      01-19-2020, 12:17 PM   #614
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"Okay everybody now run along and go drive your cars and don't make me tell you a second time. I don't want to see you in front of that keyboard again....go outside and play and don't let me catch you in here again today"

Last edited by RTPenland; 01-19-2020 at 12:18 PM.. Reason: forgot a word
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      01-19-2020, 12:45 PM   #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan86 View Post
MP cars are not full M cars, I think we've all agreed on that (ftmp)

The MP cars with "M" designation in front of the model are worthy of recognition, though, imo (LSD's, Brembo's etc). Their specs on paper don't lie, and the performance gap from an MP --> M is not the in the same camp as the gap from a standard M-badged 3 series to M car.
Now I'm confused.

I thought we were talking about the M+ 3 digit cars here, e.g. The new m340i, the m240i and the upcoming m235i gran coupe?

My understanding is that the Mxxx naming convention is just BMWs way of indicating that the car has an engine one step down from the Mx cars, or the most powerful engine if an Mx car doesn't exist. Are there hard rules about having brembos or LSDs? Because the m240i doesn't come with an LSD unless you option it. BMW usually upgrades other things besides the engine, because that's what you do with trim levels, but how exactly they do it varies model to model.

It's just a trim designation that translates into "more powerful than the non Mxxx version" just like Mx means "slightly more powerful than that" there's no guarantee any of these cars will have anything other than slightly more or less horsepower than one another.

I guess this is a dead horse, but it's just marketing. Every car has to be evaluated on its own individual merits. You can't say all Mxxx cars are trackworthy, just like you can't say all Mx cars have widebodies. Some are, some aren't. The only real rule is with engines, and even then it's more just out of the box power than anything else (see M2, M235i gc)
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      01-19-2020, 01:15 PM   #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drF80 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F82Racer View Post
You have no idea about what you are talking about. There's no MP version of 335i, and you've owned one lol.
Actually, there is.
The dealer can install the M Performance exhaust and engine pieces...
https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/...-torque-206371

It may have evolved into something else with the G20 platform, however, it does not make it an M car. G80 will again be a huge jump over that G20MP just like F80 was over my F30 + MP
Still not the same and I explained that above. Only car that is marginally close is a 340i with the ZF8 transmission and the MPPSK. Your 335i M-PPK add-on (which only adds 20lbs of torque to a baseline 300 N55) didn't have a true locking differential (only the shit open e-diff), the new ZF8 which will be going into the G80 M3, M division tuned suspension, and the unparalleled B58 which produces 60+ horsepower than your MPPK F30 (basically the same block going into the G80 M3 minus the shorter strokes and a twin scroll to a bi).

Educate yourself on the brand - If we are talking margins, your non "MPerformance" F30 is far off a true MPerformance build than the margin of a M340i to an M3.
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