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      08-11-2013, 10:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainly View Post
people are saying that the m5 will beat the new e63 from a roll, because of the added weigth of the 4 matic, but even wwith the extra 100-150 lbs wont the e63 STILL be lighter than the M5?

if so, why would the m5 pull at higher speeds? especially considering the S-AMG will have 585 hp.

?
DSG vs Mercedes 7 speed wet clutch MCT. DSG shifts much faster. Also, drivetrain loss from AWD.

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      08-11-2013, 10:17 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by 335Xray View Post
DSG vs Mercedes 7 speed wet clutch MCT. DSG shifts much faster.

much faster?

ive had both transmissions and i could detect no difference in shift speed. literally, no difference. im sure on paper there is probably a difference, in milliseconds.
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      08-11-2013, 10:52 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainly View Post
people are saying that the m5 will beat the new e63 from a roll, because of the added weigth of the 4 matic, but even wwith the extra 100-150 lbs wont the e63 STILL be lighter than the M5?

if so, why would the m5 pull at higher speeds? especially considering the S-AMG will have 585 hp.

?
It isn't just the added weight (which should make it a little heavier than the M5), it is the addition parasitic loss from now sending the power to the front wheels as well as to the rear. The greater the parasitic loss, the less effective hp will make it to the ground. The current E63 with performance package is rated at 557hp and puts down around 500whp on a Dynojet dyno. The '14 E63 S 4matic is rated at 585hp but the AWD may eat into that 28hp bump when run on a dyno. Many M5s have already dynoed well above that 500whp figure and may still dyno higher than the '14 E63, let alone any hp increase for the M5's competition package.
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      08-11-2013, 10:57 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainly View Post
people are saying that the m5 will beat the new e63 from a roll, because of the added weigth of the 4 matic, but even wwith the extra 100-150 lbs wont the e63 STILL be lighter than the M5?

if so, why would the m5 pull at higher speeds? especially considering the S-AMG will have 585 hp.

?
There is only one way to tell......Video.

If I were a betting man I would put my money on the AMG. Why? Because of the fact that there is more power being applied to the road surface in a more efficient manner(4wd), less wheelspin , etc.

I understand that most on this board don't care to hear that, but let's try to be subjective for a moment and call a spade a spade.

I am going from a C63 to a 2014 M5 in about 2 weeks, not because it's quicker than the E63, but because I find the M5 more attractive and I prefer the DCT.
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      08-11-2013, 11:02 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainly View Post
people are saying that the m5 will beat the new e63 from a roll, because of the added weigth of the 4 matic, but even wwith the extra 100-150 lbs wont the e63 STILL be lighter than the M5?

if so, why would the m5 pull at higher speeds? especially considering the S-AMG will have 585 hp.

?
Drivetrain loss, which they are trying to compensate with power. Would still be a close race
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      08-11-2013, 11:29 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tico12 View Post
There is only one way to tell......Video.

If I were a betting man I would put my money on the AMG. Why? Because of the fact that there is more power being applied to the road surface in a more efficient manner(4wd), less wheelspin , etc.

I understand that most on this board don't care to hear that, but let's try to be subjective for a moment and call a spade a spade.

I am going from a C63 to a 2014 M5 in about 2 weeks, not because it's quicker than the E63, but because I find the M5 more attractive and I prefer the DCT.
I don't think anyone here had delusions of beating the E63 S 4matic from a dig, people were talking about roll races where traction has very little impact at the speeds that they are starting.
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      08-11-2013, 11:29 PM   #51
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+1
M5 wins on a roll bet money on it
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      08-12-2013, 12:46 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
It isn't just the added weight (which should make it a little heavier than the M5), it is the addition parasitic loss from now sending the power to the front wheels as well as to the rear. The greater the parasitic loss, the less effective hp will make it to the ground. The current E63 with performance package is rated at 557hp and puts down around 500whp on a Dynojet dyno. The '14 E63 S 4matic is rated at 585hp but the AWD may eat into that 28hp bump when run on a dyno. Many M5s have already dynoed well above that 500whp figure and may still dyno higher than the '14 E63, let alone any hp increase for the M5's competition package.
according to AMG website the E63 S-AMG 4matic is 4276 lbs

isnt the m5 was over 4300 ???

Last edited by mainly; 08-12-2013 at 12:53 AM..
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      08-12-2013, 12:59 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko1414 View Post
+1
M5 wins on a roll bet money on it
nodoubt the m5 with comp. package is going to be badass from a roll.

will be an interesting race.

once we go tune only on each though, the E/CLS 4matic will be hard for the m5 to beat...
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      08-12-2013, 10:40 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainly View Post
people are saying that the m5 will beat the new e63 from a roll, because of the added weigth of the 4 matic, but even wwith the extra 100-150 lbs wont the e63 STILL be lighter than the M5?

if so, why would the m5 pull at higher speeds? especially considering the S-AMG will have 585 hp.

?
I dont see weight being the factor (as much) as the inefficient mct tranny and the AWD system. The AWD system sucks up the power at higher speeds and also the MCT combined with the AWD system is not remotely as efficient in the hp to the ground delivery. I recently dyno'd my M5 at EAS and then my buddy dyno'd his E63 with the PP kit (albeit not a 2014)- his car averaged 488hp and mine was 538hp. This was WHP which the F10 will benefit in the run and the curves on the rpm/speed scale clearly show that the F10 will have alot more hp up top when roller races shine. The 35 hp will not make up for the AWD system in the E63 IMHO. It will be an incredible car no doubt and a force from a dig but the DCT shines. For most daily drivers (traffic queens) the E63 will the be car- mash and go and enjoy thrust and no spin. I just dont drive that way often and cant get over the ugly front end either. I do need to see it in person; the cars are at the port I hear right now.

The MCT is just too far behind in technology. My friends in Dubai are running Beta MCT tunes and they swear their cars are two lengths faster in rollers than without. Its just not as good.

This is not science- the cars are very close still but look at the curves and tell me who shines up top. This is a non AWD E63 who will have slightly less hp but will not lose as much up top because it does NOT have AWD:

Whats reallly impressive is the torque curver or lack of it in the F10... solid all the way thru. Oh thats my C63 Black thrown in the mix- yes its slower up top but it sounds 4.976543 times better LOL. Its interesting how the Blacks power curves mirror the F10 but at lower levels.

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      08-12-2013, 11:00 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainly View Post
according to AMG website the E63 S-AMG 4matic is 4276 lbs

isnt the m5 was over 4300 ???
I am going by the weights from this test:

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-e63-amg-1.pdf

Add 100-150lbs for the AWD...
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      08-12-2013, 11:04 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic55 View Post
I dont see weight being the factor (as much) as the inefficient mct tranny and the AWD system. The AWD system sucks up the power at higher speeds and also the MCT combined with the AWD system is not remotely as efficient in the hp to the ground delivery. I recently dyno'd my M5 at EAS and then my buddy dyno'd his E63 with the PP kit (albeit not a 2014)- his car averaged 488hp and mine was 538hp. This was WHP which the F10 will benefit in the run and the curves on the rpm/speed scale clearly show that the F10 will have alot more hp up top when roller races shine. The 35 hp will not make up for the AWD system in the E63 IMHO. It will be an incredible car no doubt and a force from a dig but the DCT shines. For most daily drivers (traffic queens) the E63 will the be car- mash and go and enjoy thrust and no spin. I just dont drive that way often and cant get over the ugly front end either. I do need to see it in person; the cars are at the port I hear right now.

The MCT is just too far behind in technology. My friends in Dubai are running Beta MCT tunes and they swear their cars are two lengths faster in rollers than without. Its just not as good.

This is not science- the cars are very close still but look at the curves and tell me who shines up top. This is a non AWD E63 who will have slightly less hp but will not lose as much up top because it does NOT have AWD:

Whats reallly impressive is the torque curver or lack of it in the F10... solid all the way thru. Oh thats my C63 Black thrown in the mix- yes its slower up top but it sounds 4.976543 times better LOL. Its interesting how the Blacks power curves mirror the F10 but at lower levels.

+1000

The only thing I would add is that from a roll..the low end torque advantage of the E63 would not be utilized as the RPMs would never fall below 4K...as opposed to a race from a dig..
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      08-12-2013, 11:32 AM   #57
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Well, Sport Auto tested RS6 0-160km at 7.7 sec. and 0-200km at 12.1 sec.

Both RS6 and E63 S are AWD and the E63 supposedly has even more power and torque, so we shall see.
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      08-12-2013, 11:47 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainly View Post
nodoubt the m5 with comp. package is going to be badass from a roll.

will be an interesting race.

once we go tune only on each though, the E/CLS 4matic will be hard for the m5 to beat...
Willl report back after the next airstrip event.

Most tune only renntech E63/CLS are throwing down a solid 590rwhp / 720 Ft/Lbs of Trq

I raced an even faster E63 Renntech Tune, Downpipes & Turbo upgrade from a 60mph roll (x2) He only pulled about 1.5 on me up to 130MPH. Lots of jaws dropped on that one.
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      08-12-2013, 11:55 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Well, Sport Auto tested RS6 0-160km at 7.7 sec. and 0-200km at 12.1 sec.

Both RS6 and E63 S are AWD and the E63 supposedly has even more power and torque, so we shall see.
There is an AutoZeitung test (German car mag) already between the F10 M5 and the E63 S 4matic. The E63 ran 0-100km/h in 3.6s and 0-160km/h in 7.6s. The M5 ran 0-100km/h in 4.2s and 0-160km/h in 8.0s. Unfortunately they only ran up to 160km/h. But what you can see is that it took the M5 only 3.8s (8.0 - 4.2) to run from 100-160km/h and the E63 took 4.0s. It is hardly conclusive data, but it does show, in this particular test, the M5 starting to reel the E63 back in as the speeds build. I know some E63 S are being delivered here in the US so hopefully we will have some real world side by side races to prove out our theories.
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      08-12-2013, 12:01 PM   #60
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http://youtu.be/QsTXyTKpFuQ

oh yeah and here is the video of the first race vs the renntech E63..supposedly this thing is putting down like 675whp or something like that...
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      08-12-2013, 12:17 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom C
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Well, Sport Auto tested RS6 0-160km at 7.7 sec. and 0-200km at 12.1 sec.

Both RS6 and E63 S are AWD and the E63 supposedly has even more power and torque, so we shall see.
There is an AutoZeitung test (German car mag) already between the F10 M5 and the E63 S 4matic. The E63 ran 0-100km/h in 3.6s and 0-160km/h in 7.6s. The M5 ran 0-100km/h in 4.2s and 0-160km/h in 8.0s. Unfortunately they only ran up to 160km/h. But what you can see is that it took the M5 only 3.8s (8.0 - 4.2) to run from 100-160km/h and the E63 took 4.0s. It is hardly conclusive data, but it does show, in this particular test, the M5 starting to reel the E63 back in as the speeds build. I know some E63 S are being delivered here in the US so hopefully we will have some real world side by side races to prove out our theories.
Autocar also tested the new RS6 and did say the M5 accelerate faster from 120mph. But given most stop light race don't go that fast, I would say the RS6 and the new E63 S will have M5's number.

On track though, it's another story, Sport Auto has the M5 faster around the Hockenheim than the RS6, and the Nurburgring time should come out soon (RS6 's super test is due next issue).
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      08-12-2013, 12:23 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Autocar also tested the new RS6 and did say the M5 accelerate faster from 120mph. But given most stop light race don't go that fast, I would say the RS6 and the new E63 S will have M5's number.

On track though, it's another story, Sport Auto has the M5 faster around the Hockenheim than the RS6, and the Nurburgring time should come out soon (RS6 's super test is due next issue).
Once again no one is saying that an M5 will beat an E63 S from a stand-still, dig, stoplight etc. The question is whether an M5 will be faster from a rolling start (usually 50mph and above). Highway roll racing is probably more common where there are long stretches of highways where you can test the power of a car and not which car has better traction or the better driver.
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      08-12-2013, 01:05 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom C
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Autocar also tested the new RS6 and did say the M5 accelerate faster from 120mph. But given most stop light race don't go that fast, I would say the RS6 and the new E63 S will have M5's number.

On track though, it's another story, Sport Auto has the M5 faster around the Hockenheim than the RS6, and the Nurburgring time should come out soon (RS6 's super test is due next issue).
Once again no one is saying that an M5 will beat an E63 S from a stand-still, dig, stoplight etc. The question is whether an M5 will be faster from a rolling start (usually 50mph and above). Highway roll racing is probably more common where there are long stretches of highways where you can test the power of a car and not which car has better traction or the better driver.

Super test will have in gear acceleration from 80km and up.
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      08-14-2013, 12:58 PM   #64
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Well, apparently I read the preview wrong, it was E63 S that appeared in this new issue's (Sport Auto) super test, not the RS6.

Lets get on with the figures. M5's figures are pre LCI and no competition package obviously.

Nurburgring: Benz 7.55. BMW 8.05.
Hockenheim: Benz 1.13.5. BMW 1.13.4.

0-200km-0: Benz 17.0. BMW 18.4.

And now the in gear test that everyone cares about (4,5, and 6th gear).

Benz: 80km-120km 3.3/4.5/6.6. 80km-160km 6.8/9.6/13.0.
BMW: 80km-120km 3.6/4.5/5.6. 80km-160km. 7.3/9.6/11.8.

Sport Auto picked the Benz over the M5.
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      08-14-2013, 01:02 PM   #65
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Who cares about 80km to 120km tests, snail trail speeds LOL ---- drive the damn car, how about real world speeds like 60mph to 140mph- not some 4 second mash and go gap.

And is Sport Auto an authority? No, but I am owning both cars- LOL (non AWD models)
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      08-14-2013, 07:16 PM   #66
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I notice a number of folks on here dissing 4wd and testifying to the loss of power/additional weight and countless other drawbacks.

I would tread very carefully.

There is a reason that Turbo, GTR, Aventador etc have gone this route. Surely these super cars have weighed their options and have come down in favor of 4wd.

Surely these builders are trying to get the very best "performance" out of their cars, and they think 4wd is the route to get there.
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