New E63S AMG review - RBR First Drive

[soooma]

Nice car except for the uninspiring lakckluster consol lever or shifter!!
For the lifeblood of me can't get over that
Not even mighty Tesla could with all its tech make me get over lack of appropriate sporty between seats shift knob!

AMG used to have it?! What happened?!
Is it just me resisting change?!

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by soooma

Nice car except for the uninspiring lakckluster consol lever or shifter!!
For the lifeblood of me can't get over that
Not even mighty Tesla could with all its tech make me get over lack of appropriate sporty between seats shift knob!

AMG used to have it?! What happened?!
Is it just me resisting change?!

It doesn't bother me. I never use the shifter. And it is actually nice having the open center console.

The paddles are for shifting not the lever. Everyone knows.

Do you still have a Tesla? I'm thinking of getting an XP100D for my wife. Or I Might get a Cayenne Turbo - the new version is going to be announced next month.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Macan in GTS or Turbo PP form is the better driver's car in comparison the new Panamera. The new Panamera doesn't really do anything for me in terms of driving dynamics. Both the E63 and the new M5 would be above the Panni T on my want list, regardless of price.

That's nonsense.

I've driven both and the Macan has tons of body roll compared with the Panamera. The Panamera Turbo would easily take a Macan Turbo PP in the corners and on the straights. It's a faster car in every setting.

Center of gravity matters.

[David 12]

Couldn't agree more stealth, my comment about preferring the macan gts or turbo was pointed more towards the winter months with snow on the ground.

Dave

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

That's nonsense.

I've driven both and the Macan has tons of body roll compared with the Panamera. The Panamera Turbo would easily take a Macan Turbo PP in the corners and on the straights. It's a faster car in every setting.

Center of gravity matters.

Hi Stealth,

I actually agree with your comments regarding Panni T being 'faster'; I didn't say in my original post that any Macan (GTS obviously slower than the PP given the same options) was faster than the Panni T. I can understand how my original post was left open to intrepration, so rather than express succint opinions, I'll try a verbose explaination:

This may become a moot point as you've previously stated your preference of 'faster' over 'purer', a perference which I can and do respect, even if I don't share it.

In my experience, for road driving, comparing a Macan GTS on air with a Carrera .2 4S, the extra weight of the Macan helps it to feel more planted/less skittish on certain road surfaces although they have fairly similar suspension response at normal UK road speeds. For my driving style/dynamic preference, the Macan GTS on air inspires more confidence and, hence, is the better drivers car for me over the Carrera .2 4S. Step the Carrera .2 up to GTS spec, and the tables are turned, the Carrera now have more tightly controlled suspension than the Macan GTS, and, hence, the Carrera GTS being my preferred choice by offsetting the occassional skittishness with greater body control. The general issue I have with RHD 911s is the intrusion of the wheel arch into the footwell and the resultant offset pedals. Even with this issue the 911 is still a highly disireable car, however, using one as a DD may lead to lower back pain, so for me a negative. Clearly not an issue for LHD markets.

I can only equate this to your original comments about the CP option on the F10 M5 LCI. If I remember these correctly, I believe you felt the CP suspension had potential to knock the steering off course on on/off ramp expansion joints, etc, hence, the non-CP was the correct option for you. I'm intrepting this as the non-CP being able to 'breathe' (less skittish?) with the road, hence, inspiring more confidence and ultimately being 'faster' in your hands. Obviously, take both CP and non-CP to a track, and few of us will debate which is faster. You've lived in the UK so should appreciate the limitation of exploiting the performance from large cars such as the Panni in the given environment (narrow, undulating, uneven road surfaces). One needs to have more confidence in the consistency to input responses to drive a larger car fast (more inertia to control if it goes wrong).

I'm not a fan of chassis technology that one can 'feel' during general road driving, i.e. rear axle steering on non-GT porsches. Nor am I a fan of systems such as BMWs adaptive drive which can provide inconsistent responses. Clearly both the Macan & Panni are heavy cars with lots mechanical & eletronics systems controling the effects of momentum on load transfer. In my experience, the Macan is the more natural feeling of the two. Both of these 'heavyweights' suffer on track under braking in comparison to the Porsche sports cars.

A Macan needs options to get the best handling; PTV cures the on-track understeer, air can introduce some disconcerting roll albeit provide a more comfortable secodary ride, sports crono needed to get the sport+ setting for the firmest damping. In the UK you can spec a Macan GTS or PP without air, leaving the 15mm sports suspension with PASM; this much firmer set up eliminates the perception of roll in high speed corners compared on a car on air. I believe all North American GTS/PPs come with air as std with no option to delselect which may explain your very different experience of the Macan. This may be a plausible explanation why UK tests produce results such as the following. Note, that this is a non-PP turbo, so no sports suspension/power pack, and is likely to be equipped with PTV due to the apparent lack of understeer - a PP would most likely have won the contest:

You've had your TTS for a while now, and your initial feedback was glowing. Dynamically Porsche are in a place with the majority of their range that BMW once used to occupy (some notable exceptions being M2, M4 GTS for track use). Hopefully this new gen of M-cars brings some of that dynamic brillance back. The Macan is probably still a class leader (possibly exception is the F-Pace), even though next gen Q5, X3, etc have been launched. The current Cayenne is probably still the class leader for ride/handling balance even though it's about to be replaced. I believe in the supersaloon class the current gen Panni is no longer likely to be significantly better than the competition (ignoring list price) in ride/handling balance.

So, on to my comments about current gen Panni T vs E63 and M5 and keeing this on topic for Dave. The point I was trying to make was as follows. For previous gen, the Panni GTS was generally considered the better handling car for 'feel' over non-CP F10. AWD traction in the Panni also helping it to put power down earlier out of corners. Clearly in a straight line the much more powerful F10 M5 would be faster once it eventually got traction. I've been an advocate for optional AWD in the next gen M5 since I had my F10 M5, on the basis that cars of this type need it for traction. Often on this board that wish being diametrically opposed to the RWD purists who may be concerned that AWD will spoil the 'feel' of the M5. With the allegedly 'best of both worlds' switchable AWD now becoming the standard for the current gen E63/M5, IMO, the 'driver's car of choice' is likely to shift from the Panni the E63/M5. If a new Panni GTS is positioned similar to the previous gen, it will have less power than the Panni T/AWD E63/AWD M5, so for me (again an opinion), purely judged as a performance car, this current gen of Panamera is obsolete. The hybrid Panni TS is the future, filtering down 918 tech to an mainstream car, however, general consensus is that although the resultant torque fill is welcome, the 'feel' of the car is ruined by the additional weight, regardless of it being the faster car. To paraphrase Jonny Lieberman, perhaps this in the generation, the M5 will be the scalpal to the Panni TS sledge hammer. This is why I'd previously predicted that I couldn't see BMW creating a hybrid M5 until next gen battery technology was available. M5 is still a performance halo car for BMW, whereas the Panni for Porsche is more of a GT car. This, IMO, is why we have a fairly conversative M5 in comparison to future tech test bed Panni TS. Dissapointing that the M5 has seemingly gone backwards with engineering features such as a torque converter rather than DCT, but it is perhaps sound business logic to use proven mechanicals with xdrive.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

This guy made a very decent video. I think it really captures what the E63S is

In case some haven't found it, 'Mr. AMG' from the original video has bought an Edition 1. The in-car sounds seems to be the result of some creative dubbing, however, still a good comparison with the c63 estate.

Edition 1 only 'Designo Magno Night Black' rather than 'Designo Hyacinth Red Metallic' from the original video.