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      12-13-2018, 02:06 PM   #1
Manny G
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BMW dealership couldn't resolve a check engine light after 5 visits over 3 months...

*sigh*

...and BMW NA customer relations seemingly didn't care.

Yup, 5 visits within 3 months (59 days in the dealership, 4 comeback concern visits)

My experience with BMW NA customer relations was one of the most disappointing experiences I've ever had with any customer relations department. The rep they assigned to my case was either hard to get a hold of, or was just regurgitating answers from his "field team" as a middle man.

The car is a 2013 M5 with 64k miles. Purchased as CPO in 2015 from Lauderdale BMW with 20k miles and purchased with extended maintenance package. I have owned the car for about 3.5 years now, never any major issues besides small coolant leaks and an oil pan gasket leak. The car is 100% stock with the exception of a handful of cosmetic iND upgrades.

The dealer servicing the car is Lauderdale BMW, same dealer I purchased the car from.

CPO warranty expired at the end of August 2018.

Back in July '18, my 2013 CPO M5 had some routine maintenance due such as:
  • oil change
  • microfilter
  • wiper blades
  • washer fluid top off
  • brake pad inspection

...typical "Standard Scope / Condition Based Servicing" items. I brought the car into the dealer on July 23rd to have what should have been a quick in and out visit. A loaner vehicle was provided, a 2019 430i Gran Coupe. About 3 days after I dropped the car off, the service advisor calls me to say that the tech found a coolant leak on a hose (pn# 17-12-2-284-288) that was in a difficult spot to change without ?removing the engine? to get to the hose. I don't remember exactly what the process needed to have done to get to that hose, but it was something along those lines of having to drop the engine. The hose itself is a bunch of snakes due to the complicated cooling system of the S63tu. The service advisor petitioned BMW to "goodwill" the repair since its labor price would have been astronomical for a simple coolant hose. BMW did indeed goodwill the repair at a 65/35 split on parts and labor along with a broken cabin air vent on the driver side. I picked up the car on July 31st (8 days in shop). Total cost after what was to be a simple visit: $951.89.

About a week and a half later, I take the car on a road trip to Orlando which is about 200mi. drive each way. On the way up, the check engine light turned on, however, the car continued to drive normal. I didn't notice anything of concern, so I left it as something to deal with when I returned from my trip. I kept my hopes up that it was a gas cap thing or something and that it would go away, I was wrong... the check engine light remained lit the entire time we were in Orlando.

On August 21st, I brought the M5 back in to the dealer to address the check engine light. A loaner vehicle was again provided, 2018 X2 sDrive28i. The actual reason the light is on is buried somewhere in this write-up that was on my invoice:

Quote:
62523 SOFTWARE ERROR C/B CODE KM872 CPO. CONFIRMED CUSTOMER'S CONCERN. INSTALLED BATTERY CHARGER. PERFORMED VEHICLE TEST. FOUND FAULT 118021 ( MIXTURE CONTROL, OXYGEN SENSOR ADAPTATION DUE TO ROUGH RUNNING, BANK 1: CYLINDER SPECIFIC TOTAL ADAPTATION ABOVE VALID RANGE, 11811 ( MIXTURE CONTROL 2, CROSS BANK FUEL-AIR MIXTURE TOO RICH ),. PERFORMED MIXTURE CONTROL TEST PLAN. TEST PLAN FOUND NO FAULTS. PERFORMED MISFIRE TEST PLAN. TEST PLAN CHECKED LOW PRESSURE FUEL SYSTEM FOR OPERATION, TEST PLAN CHECKED HIGH PRESSURE FUEL SYSTEM FOR PROPER OPERATION. TESTED INJECTORS FOR LEAKS. TEST SPARK PLUGS. TEST PLAN FOUND NO FAULTS. SUBMITTED PUMA CASE 64419735 PUMA STATED TO PERFORM VEHICLE SOFTWARE UPDATE. PERFORMED VEHICLE UPDATE AS PER PUMA. CASE NUMBER 64419735. ROAD TESTED VEHICLE. VEHICLE OPERATING CORRECTLY AFTER REPAIRS.
Yeah... nothing found but they performed a software update and it seemed to clear the code. The software update also managed to ruin my LCI ceramic iDrive controller which I retrofitted.. and the dealer went and replaced it with a new non-ceramic non-LCI one.... riight. I picked up the car again on August 28th (7 more days in the shop). I was charged a deductible for the visit, Total: $53.

Along comes Labor day weekend, and I take the car out for about an hour ride on that Saturday just before labor day... check engine light illuminated again. Nothing strange going on with how the car is running or anything, but noticing strange idling RPM fluctuations and a rough idle, almost like a misfire. I take the car in AGAIN on September 4th. A loaner vehicle was provided again, 2018 X1 sDrive28i. This one is a doozie. A few days after dropping off the car, I'm called by the service advisor with an update... this time the shop foreman is involved. They stated that they performed a lot of the same tests as I quoted above, and also found defective injectors. The injectors were replaced, still had the issue. They dig deeper and check for intake and exhaust leaks... found the catalytic converters were clogged, or as they put it in the invoice "the monolith element/honeycomb damaged due to defective injector". A new PUMA case was submitted, 64447758. PUMA stated to replace all 8 injectors, all 8 spark plugs, AND replace BOTH catalytic converters since they were consequential damage from the injectors. The comeback code again was KM872 and on September 17th the car was assumed to be functioning fine, so they released it to me to come pick it up. When I arrive to the dealer, the service advisor shows me the total spent on the repairs... lets just say I could have bought a nice E46 M3 at current market price for what they spent on repairs. Valet brings the car around to me on the 17th and when I get in, the first thing I see is the check engine light on again like it was never off. I didn't even leave the dealer .. I simply called the service advisor right from the drop off area who came out and saw the light on. I was given the same loaner I drove in with again and left without the M5. The next update would mention something about an air channel (13-71-7-843-276) needing to be replaced due to a leak. On September 21st (after 17 more days in the shop), I got the call again to come pick up the car. By this point, the dealer is beyond embarrassed and willing to bend over backwards to satisfy me. I continued to be a patient customer not expecting anything besides a normally functioning M5 repaired according to my warranty. Total cost on this visit: $0, just time lost.

I can't stress enough how important it is to be a polite and patient customer in situations like these.. the fact that I continue to have issues speaks volumes beyond any temper tantrum I can throw, so I let that speak for itself.

Another 2 weeks go by, and I still experience rough idles and RPM fluctuations.. the cold start would at times bounce up and down as high as 2500RPM at idle and occasionally just STALL. I could just feel that the check engine light was going to pop back up again..... and it did. It happened on another trip to Orlando, this time headed to Disney world. When I arrived at Disney, I parked the car for a few days since I don't drive while I'm there thanks to the great shuttle bus system. I had hoped that when I go back into the M5 after a few days of sitting, the CEL would magically have disappeared, .. it didn't. I bring the car back in AGAIN on October 16th. Another loaner vehicle was provided, 2018 530i. Same song and dance.... dealer changed all 8 coil packs this time along with the other air channel (13-71-7-843-277) from the last visit. The repair was covered 60/40 BMW/Dealer split. They tested and tested and tested.. and when I was called to come pick up the car on October 26th, the car felt exactly the same. Rough idle, and it even stalled on me after valet handed me the keys. I called the service advisor to come see for himself, it stalled on him as well. To make matters worse, when the car was brought out to me, it had a 4-5" black scuff mark on the rear passenger door. The service advisor came out himself and buffed it out with polish. I could not be more grateful that he was willing to do that.. but it speaks to how badly this dealership wanted to save face. I left with the loaner again, the dealership took the M5 after the tech and foreman came out to see how it was running. Their faces showed confusion and disbelief as did mine. Finally on November 12th I picked up the car with some reservations as to how it was running. I was still experiencing some roughness on the idle, but not much. The service MANAGER was involved at this point, and he said to "take the car, drive it, see if it gets better. If the light comes up again, bring it back... we will continue to work with you as you are a good customer". Another 24 days at the shop. Total cost this visit: $0, just time again.

By now I had already opened a case with BMW NA. I had called them when I bought the car back in for the 2nd time in September. I was hoping to find out about "downtime compensation" being that the car had spent so much time in the dealer and I continued to make my monthly payment on the BMW loan. The rep that was assigned to my case didn't have the ability to decide much, instead he was dependent upon whatever his non-customer facing "field team" decided. They had initially offered me a Performance Driving Experience at their Spartanburg location... but I wasn't interested in that. I wanted at least 1 payment, if not 2 deducted from the payoff quote. Ultimately, I did not get this. I was left with the answer that since I was provided loaners each time, there would be no compensation. I argued that the loaners were not in the same tier as an M5, but even still, they would not offer financial compensation. I made it clear to the rep that I was a long time customer, enthusiast, CCA member, BMW Classic owner and active on forums willing to share my dissatisfaction with the handling of this case... they were not at all concerned. They were fine with me voicing my dissatisfaction with how they responded to how they handled my case.

The dealer's service advisor was excellent. My service advisor and his manager accommodated me over and over again each time I came back. As far as the techs at the dealership, the one assigned to my car may have still been too new.. my invoices say BMWTRAINEE all over a lot of the work :shifty

The week after November 12th of which I finally got the car back, I decided to pour 2 cans of Seafoam into the gas tank when it was at about 3/4 full. At this ratio, it is 2oz of Seafoam for every 1gal of fuel... double the concentration. I took the car on some spirited runs and let the engine get fully up to temp each time. I noticed the cars idle getting smoother and the idle fluctuations becoming smaller.. I still see an RPM jump on warm starts though... no check engine light so far. I'm currently still 'monitoring' how its running and feel that the CEL may still pop up. In a way I guess I have lost confidence in the car?

What did the dealer change?
  • 8 Injectors
  • 8 Ignition coil packs
  • 8 Spark Plugs
  • 1 Updated software
  • 2 Catalytic Converters
  • multiple air channels and vent hoses

What are my options from here? Should I still be pushing for the financial compensation? My wife keeps asking me... would I buy another BMW after going through this, and I honestly don't know? I'm interested to know where the forum would go with a situation like this.

I've been giving thoughts to just trading it in for an M2. :embarrasm
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      12-13-2018, 02:36 PM   #2
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EDIT: Are you familiar with a walnut blast? Carbon coated valves can cause rough idle (and the elusive intermittent CEL that comes along with it) and are very common among turbo-charged direct-injected BMW's**

Aside from that.. Do you have a modified intake? Possible rabbit hole to jump down might be MAF sensor type error?


As for chasing NA for some coin. That depends on what your time is worth to you, how much is emotional fester vs. the reality that swift and just recompense will occur.

IMO we all have bad luck with some cars and some cars are a dream to own. My 135i cost me nothing outside of a water pump, my Range Rover cost me 3,900$ in the first three months of ownership and my M5 has cost me nothing over six months and counting (knock on wood).

Land Rover cracked my timing plate and then glued it back together thinking I wouldn't know. I proved it to them and got told to fuck off by Land Rover NA(whole thing was a waste of time and sanity). HQ case incidents that are handled by these companies assign an individual(s) who is(are) arm-chair quarterbacking issues that take place in machine-shops and require more analog customer relations practices (even in this increasingly digital world).

Case managers in New Jersey who know fuck-all about how cars work reviewing a bunch of documents compiled by 3 different sources without context is a nightmare. The system is designed to be mediocre, drawn-out, and flawed.


We get emotional with our cars (way more so that I care to admit). Let your brain to the steering on this one bud.


P.S. Finding a mechanic who is knowledgeable about your platform, who you TRUST, and who won't waste your time is worth your sanity.

Last edited by Lmaiuri; 12-13-2018 at 02:52 PM.
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      12-13-2018, 03:50 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmaiuri View Post
EDIT: Are you familiar with a walnut blast? Carbon coated valves can cause rough idle (and the elusive intermittent CEL that comes along with it) and are very common among turbo-charged direct-injected BMW's**

Aside from that.. Do you have a modified intake? Possible rabbit hole to jump down might be MAF sensor type error?


As for chasing NA for some coin. That depends on what your time is worth to you, how much is emotional fester vs. the reality that swift and just recompense will occur.

IMO we all have bad luck with some cars and some cars are a dream to own. My 135i cost me nothing outside of a water pump, my Range Rover cost me 3,900$ in the first three months of ownership and my M5 has cost me nothing over six months and counting (knock on wood).

Land Rover cracked my timing plate and then glued it back together thinking I wouldn't know. I proved it to them and got told to fuck off by Land Rover NA(whole thing was a waste of time and sanity). HQ case incidents that are handled by these companies assign an individual(s) who is(are) arm-chair quarterbacking issues that take place in machine-shops and require more analog customer relations practices (even in this increasingly digital world).

Case managers in New Jersey who know fuck-all about how cars work reviewing a bunch of documents compiled by 3 different sources without context is a nightmare. The system is designed to be mediocre, drawn-out, and flawed.


We get emotional with our cars (way more so that I care to admit). Let your brain to the steering on this one bud.


P.S. Finding a mechanic who is knowledgeable about your platform, who you TRUST, and who won't waste your time is worth your sanity.
The CBU on the valves along with the MAFs were two possible things I had in mind. The dealership did troubleshooting on the MAFs during the 2nd or 3rd visit... the one that they replaced the cats... they said they found no faults. I was thinking of installing a meth kit to combat the CBU.

I do have an indy shop near by, BMW specialists... now that my warranty is up I'm going to have to depend on them as I've had to with my E39.

As for the case manager, you're 100% right with your assessment. I couldn't believe the passive way they were handling this with little to no regard for my satisfaction as a customer. During one conversation, he had the balls to start the sentence with something like "Well since your car is a 2013 I dont think.." blah blah basically saying that my car was too old for BMW to give a shit to satisfy me as a customer. I asked him, had my car been a 2018 or 2019, would BMW care more about my satisfaction.. all he could reply is that "things are decided on a case by case basis".
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      12-14-2018, 08:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny G View Post
The CBU on the valves along with the MAFs were two possible things I had in mind. The dealership did troubleshooting on the MAFs during the 2nd or 3rd visit... the one that they replaced the cats... they said they found no faults. I was thinking of installing a meth kit to combat the CBU.

I do have an indy shop near by, BMW specialists... now that my warranty is up I'm going to have to depend on them as I've had to with my E39.

As for the case manager, you're 100% right with your assessment. I couldn't believe the passive way they were handling this with little to no regard for my satisfaction as a customer. During one conversation, he had the balls to start the sentence with something like "Well since your car is a 2013 I dont think.." blah blah basically saying that my car was too old for BMW to give a shit to satisfy me as a customer. I asked him, had my car been a 2018 or 2019, would BMW care more about my satisfaction.. all he could reply is that "things are decided on a case by case basis".
Meth is a good idea but I'd be wary about touching an already finnicky machine before the issues get sorted. Doing a walnut blast just might solve your rough idle. With no codes, it's a good bet that one of your valves is caked with carbon and that's why you're getting intermittent issues without resolve.

And I hear you on the case manager thing. Do you have a BMW tuner nearby? I got into a pretty serious accident about a month ago (28K worth of damage) and I just got my beast back. I'm taking it to a reputable tuner nearby to do an alignment, baseline dyno, and fault code read. May be worth a shot to check out and see if you get any different (and more direct) feedback.

Last edited by Lmaiuri; 12-14-2018 at 09:02 AM.
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      12-14-2018, 10:52 AM   #5
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Wow, now thatís a horror story. Iím surprised the service manager stated that they will keep working with you because youíre a good customer. How about the fact that you bought the car CPO from their dealership? Itís their obligation to make your car work.
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      12-14-2018, 05:29 PM   #6
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Whats your plan of attack at this point? Did more seafoam seem to clear it up until its gone (almost)
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      12-17-2018, 04:53 PM   #7
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My plan is to now take the car back to the dealer because guess what? The light turned on again. Took another trip up to Disney for the weekend, was fine on the 200miles up, but on the way back i stopped to get gas, and after i left the station, it illuminated.

Drove fine the whole time though so... dunno?
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      12-17-2018, 07:17 PM   #8
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*UPDATE*

I scanned the car with Carly today after the light illuminated again.. the fault was:

Fault Code: 118010

Fault Explanation: Mixture control, across the databases: mixture too lean



.... I'm thinking I should clean my MAFs?
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      12-18-2018, 04:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny G View Post
*UPDATE*

I scanned the car with Carly today after the light illuminated again.. the fault was:

Fault Code: 118010

Fault Explanation: Mixture control, across the databases: mixture too lean



.... I'm thinking I should clean my MAFs?
Especially if you have aftermarket intakes.
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      12-18-2018, 09:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
Especially if you have aftermarket intakes.
I don't have aftermarket intakes, .. i have factory intakes but I deleted the carbon filters.
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      12-18-2018, 01:14 PM   #11
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Just a thought,I would install the c/f's back in and see how it runs then.
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      12-18-2018, 01:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
Just a thought,I would install the c/f's back in and see how it runs then.
I thought to do that also, but I've had them removed for almost 3 years now so I'd be surprised if the existing MAFs have been fouled by removing them... especially since its only added to the US F10 M5 as far as I'm aware.

I ordered 2 new MAFs, they should be here tomorrow.. but I'm going to check out the existing ones today and give them a cleaning without clearing the CEL. Once i get some miles and the adaptations correct, the CEL should shut off on its own after cleaning the MAFs. If they clear, then I know there is an issue with the self-cleaning circuit for the hot wire.

source:
https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/H...Airflow-Sensor
Quote:
By far, the most common cause of MAF sensor failure is a dirty sensing element. Depending on your specific results, you may want to check the sensor itself:

Disconnect the MAF sensor from the air cleaner assembly and visually inspect the sensing element.
If the sensing element is dirty, the sensor might actually be working but contamination is preventing it from doing its job.


Hot-wire type sensors have a self-cleaning electrical circuit that heats the sensing element up to 1000 C degrees (1832 F) when you shut off the engine. If that part of the circuit fails (not uncommon), the sensor will end up covered in dirt and eventually fail to read incoming air.
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      12-18-2018, 02:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny G View Post
I thought to do that also, but I've had them removed for almost 3 years now so I'd be surprised if the existing MAFs have been fouled by removing them... especially since its only added to the US F10 M5 as far as I'm aware.

I ordered 2 new MAFs, they should be here tomorrow.. but I'm going to check out the existing ones today and give them a cleaning without clearing the CEL. Once i get some miles and the adaptations correct, the CEL should shut off on its own after cleaning the MAFs. If they clear, then I know there is an issue with the self-cleaning circuit for the hot wire.

source:
https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/H...Airflow-Sensor
I'm learning even more now by you putting that on Manny and I'm sure you must have it covered now.
When you're happy with the running of the car don't forget to put pics of it on the Singapore Grey column.Good Luck!
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      12-18-2018, 05:01 PM   #14
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I think the MAF is after the air filters so it shouldn't matter if you removed the filter element or went to a k&n type no-box cone intake.

Lean mixture can also mean low fuel delivery. Seems like they tried replacing the injectors but usually people check the fuel pressure and replace the fuel filter and pump before replacing all injectors on the car. I was surprised to not see anything like that in their list of attempts.
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      12-18-2018, 05:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK View Post
I think the MAF is after the air filters so it shouldn't matter if you removed the filter element or went to a k&n type no-box cone intake.

Lean mixture can also mean low fuel delivery. Seems like they tried replacing the injectors but usually people check the fuel pressure and replace the fuel filter and pump before replacing all injectors on the car. I was surprised to not see anything like that in their list of attempts.
They replaced all of the injectors under a recall campaign that my car was eligible for.. they said they didnt see any issues with fuel pressure after they tested the system on the 2nd visit.

Small update, i cleaned both MAFs with CRC MAF cleaner... one of them looked pretty dirty with oil residue. I saw it all come off clean as the cleaner hit it. I let them dry for about 10-15 minutes and popped them back in. The car feels incredibly different... MUCH smoother idle and quicker response all around. I put about 50 miles on it since the cleaning.. i think at 60 miles (100 km) is when adaptations reset and the light *should* shut off on its own.. fingers crossed.
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      12-18-2018, 08:22 PM   #16
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Great to hear Manny!

Side note question: how often are we supposed to replace our fuel filters? (Assuming we all use good fuel stations)....where is it located?
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      12-18-2018, 09:45 PM   #17
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Sorry, I was wrong. This car doesn't seem to have an inline replaceable fuel filter. If there is one, its probably part of the pump module, which I've seen on other cars.

Great that car is working better.
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      12-19-2018, 05:01 AM   #18
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Sorry, I was wrong. This car doesn't seem to have an inline replaceable fuel filter. If there is one, its probably part of the pump module, which I've seen on other cars.

Great that car is working better.
My fuel filter (kraftstofffilter) was changed at 17000 mi in the service schedule.
As far as I know it's underneath the floor pan in the middle of vehicle hidden by aero covering and protective shielding.

Last edited by M5theonlyone; 12-19-2018 at 02:15 PM.
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      12-20-2018, 01:13 PM   #19
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My first 13 had this code after I installed bms intakes and somehow managed to dirty the old MAF.

The MAF are extremely sensitive in this car. When I install the bms this time around I'm going to install new maf too.
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      12-22-2018, 11:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
My fuel filter (kraftstofffilter) was changed at 17000 mi in the service schedule.
As far as I know it's underneath the floor pan in the middle of vehicle hidden by aero covering and protective shielding.
As far as I can tell, USA cars aren't fitted with an inline fuel filter. I could only find it in realoem for left-hand-drive EUR cars (didn't show up in right-hand for whatever reason). Probably they don't load all the data. The part is 16127451424. None of the usual US BMW online parts places sell a filter for this car.
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      12-23-2018, 08:33 AM   #21
M5theonlyone
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2013 BMW M5  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK View Post
As far as I can tell, USA cars aren't fitted with an inline fuel filter. I could only find it in realoem for left-hand-drive EUR cars (didn't show up in right-hand for whatever reason). Probably they don't load all the data. The part is 16127451424. None of the usual US BMW online parts places sell a filter for this car.
Maybe it's worth loosening a few tabs and taking a peek there.There must be some sort of strainer as it would be serious if some dirt got into injection even cause (stuck open injector).
Have a good Christmas TLK
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      12-26-2018, 04:52 PM   #22
Manny G
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Update since my last post,

The cleaning did help the MAFs from the wild RPM fluctuations and improved the drive-ability of the car, but the CEL didnt shut off even after 60 miles or after 250 miles.

I noticed it still occasionally having a spike in RPMs, so I decided to install the new MAF sensors I just purchased to have on standby. After installing them, the car felt very smooth at idle, no more random spike... but the CEL still didnt shut off.

I read the OBD via Carly and the live values on the Short Term Fuel Trim and Long Term Fuel Trim for both bank 1 and both 2 move around ok, but I noticed the LTFT on Bank one is way up around 25% whereas Bank 2 LTFT stays around 14%-16%. Driving around, the STFT for both bank 1 & 2 stay steady and together, and the LTFT on bank 1 starts to come down a little bit, but at idle it climbs right back up.

From everything Ive read on fuel trims, they should never fluctuate more than +/-5% otherwise I'd be running too lean/rich.

Any ideas why bank 1 would run so lean? Car is stock with stock intakes
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