[AutoCar]: F10 M5 vs E63 AMG vs Jag XF-R

[M-Power111]

numbers are numbers, in the end the BMW is a better car all the way around period.

[JSCO]

wow!

[Alan l.]

The M5 getting beaten will certainly grab more attention (sell more magazines) than the usual outcome

Alan

[v1p3r]

I will wait for more reviews.

Sutcliffe contradicts a couple of the things he said in his own video review, or at least places less emphasis on the bits he liked when it came to writing the article

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589737

We've heard the sound clips, we've seen the quality of the interior, heard how steering feel is great and communicative with the hydraulic steering and how it all improves on the E60

We've read the countless other reviews from reputable reviewers, Motor Trend, Chris Harris from evo, etc. I'm pretty sure the outcome of this won't be replicated in other head to head comparisons.

I want to see a drag race, a track race, a Nurburgring run and a RS6 involved before I accept the ///M5 is not again proclaimed the benchmark in it's class.

[JerezblackM3]

What is wrong with BMW?!? Claiming they want to go light weight! F10 m5 is close to 2 tons, making it the heaviest m5. That just sucks! I have a feeling they will mess up the new m3 as well. BMW was always about handling before power. Now they have taken mercedes old route. It is like mercedes and BMW switching places. Nothing will ever be better than an e39 m5! Miss it so much

[Just_me]

Originally Posted by JerezblackM3

just sucks! I have a feeling they will mess up the new m3 as well.

I shouldn't worry if I was you. Both the new X3 and new 1-series are lighter than previous generation. The new 3-series won't gain much extra weight.

[lve2xlr8]

Originally Posted by EuroTrip

Its really too bad that they left out the E63's G-Force meter, which iterferes with the car's ECU when the threshhold is breached.

Been at several track events where even a Black Edition AMG was towed off track due to limp mode from...none other than "Lateral Force Limit Exceeded" code.




Get outta here with this nonsense. BMW is the ultimate driving machine 365 days a year.

I've tried to research this "Lateral Force Limit Exceeded" code with zero results, can you link me?

Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC

Is this the twilight zone?

The Benz is lighter, better handling, and has less power. The BMW is heavier, worse handling, has more power.

The Benz is quicker with less HP.

The scripts have officially flipped.

+1 You're traveling into another dimension, one where engine sounds are artificially reproduced in the cabin.

[Sedan_Clan]

It'll be nice to have many of you M3 drivers defect to other manufacturers. It'll separate us men from the boys.


*stirring the silliness pot*

[Schnorbitz]

If you can get a hold of a copy of Autocar, read Sutcliffe's column this week where he details how busy a couple of days he had doing this group test. It surprised me just how little time he spent driving the 3 cars, and of the time he did, most of it was on multi-laners apparently.

I'd take the Jag myself.

[AZ135]

It's funny that they say that the BMW is the more cushy and relaxed car when compared to the Merc, with the Merc being the more exhilarating of the two. They state that the BMW is the better car to live with on a day to day basis, but that the Merc is the sharper of the two... It's a complete swap from previous generations when the BMW was the precision tool and the Merc was the comfy cruiser. My, how times change.

[slo_335-e90]

I wouldn't let one review cause such an outrage. Although, in Mercs defense, they really have stepped up their AMG cars. Coming from someone whose family owns a Merc and Audi dealership (let's not talk about why I drive a bmw ) The new AMG's are much more responsive than the older ones. And the exhaust note is just something to be heard. I haven't driven the brand new twin turbo e63, but I have driven the new cls63 and it is an amazing ride. Plus, don't forget that Benz offers the high output package which gives it more HP from an increase in the psi for the turbos (550 hp, 590 torque). I do think its a bit of a shocker though that this new m5 weighs more, you'd think that it'd be lighter, and it has a smaller motor than the benz. Gotta see what other reviews say!

[Fester]

Originally Posted by eisenb11

Does it seem odd to anyone that they would post the verdict on the cover?

Yes it's very odd

[SHOWTIME]

Very surprising review.

The problem is BMW likes to prove too many things in their cars. Now, even more so on their "exclusive" M cars. I'll go a bit backwards in time to say that the E92 M3 should've been a 4.6L from the start, and it would've destroyed every competitor in every way (even better sales)....but no...BMW wanted to prove what they can do with only a 4.0L. Now they finally are going nuts with power but have a new bug up their butt, trying to prove how they can build an M car that can play both soft and hard. When you focus on too many things you just can't make that perfect car for that special enthusiast. I don't know about everyone else, but I like getting into a car that is always ready to wrip to its fullest potentinal without having to press any magic buttons. I want the car to force me to deal with its wildeness/roughness/sportiness...to remind me, hey! This is why you chose me in the first place! If you don't always like the slut that I am you can get a Camry on the side. I won't be jealous. I promise.

[MDivPower]

Originally Posted by Just_me

You guys must remember that initial reviews of the mighty M3 E92, the car lost many times against the competition, for instance against Audi RS4 and C63. But some time later its a winner and a favorite among auto journalists.

Just wait and see, after the warm-up of the new M5 it will start being the favorite within auto journalists. Just like the M3

yes exactly, i remember when the e92 was first introduced, autocar did not like it that much, and claimed that it did not meet their expectations as a new m3, but as time goes by, the m3 is on top of its game even when new rivals like the RS5 and the C63 AMG coupe joined.

[slo_335-e90]

Originally Posted by SHOWTIME

Very surprising review.

The problem is BMW likes to prove too many things in their cars. Now, even more so on their "exclusive" M cars. I'll go a bit backwards in time to say that the E92 M3 should've been a 4.6L from the start, and it would've destroyed every competitor in every way (even better sales)....but no...BMW wanted to prove what they can do with only a 4.0L. Now they finally are going nuts with power but have a new bug up their butt, trying to prove how they can build an M car that can play both soft and hard. When you focus on too many things you just can't make that perfect car for that special enthusiast. I don't know about everyone else, but I like getting into a car that is always ready to wrip to its fullest potentinal without having to press any magic buttons. I want the car to force me to deal with its wildeness/roughness/sportiness...to remind me, hey! This is why you chose me in the first place! If you don't always like the slut that I am you can get a Camry on the side. I won't be jealous. I promise.

^^^This. Couldn't have put it any better.

[Kayani_1]

Well I do not care much for if they like E63 over M5 or not. Because they said M5 is faster in straight line. I am pretty sure it will turn out to be faster on track also


The only thing that disappoints me BIG TIME IS: Since when did BMW start getting its behind handed to it by MB with regards to weight.

I have always admired the fact that BMW M's have been the lighter then their competition. The weight is the enemy of driving dynamics. Yes, you can make a heavier car handle as good as a lighter car with a bunch of technology and gizmos. But the fact of the matter is it will never feel as pure as the lighter one when it comes to driving dynamics.

I can see this mags point of view with regards to weight, noise and interior.

A ultra high performance sedan should sound like one and feel like one. One can clearly see without a bias that both the Jag and BMW have an interior that is not much different than the standard 5 series. The MB has a much more sportier flavor to its steering wheel. While BMW steering wheel looks like it belongs in an mini-bus.

But I guess you can't blame BMW because it seems like their customer base is changing. When BMW owners come on here and complain about race car like back firing noise coming upon downshifts claiming ewwww the car is "farting ". You can tell who BMW is catering too.

I for one think a hyper sports sedan should be in your face and raw. Other wise if you want to drive sedate cars that do not "ewwwww fart" on down shifts etc...do us a favor and buy a Toyota Prius. Give the M5 some mean sound like muscle cars or exotics, give it some back firing sounds on crackling down shifts. Make it sound like a 4 door race car. The sad thing is when I drove the CTS-V sedan on race track. That same Vette ZR1 engine that sounds amazing in ZR1 was extra muted and dulled down by Caddy. Why?????

This stupid trend of making cars more quite and calm is even seeping into ultra exotic cars. Just take a look at the new Mclaren MP4. Until people complained they did not go back and revise the exhaust sound. Why???.......it makes no sense that you would not build a performance car to sound like one from the get go.


The M5 should sound raw and feel like a light weight, agile, and precise surgeons scalpel that can carve any road with its driving dynamics.


Otherwise if you want comfort and power only. Then there are plenty of choices on market. To me it seems like they tried to make M5 into a 4 door version of GT-R without the bargain price. Super fast but lacking the excitement. For GT-R that works because of its superb price range. But for M5 it does not due to its ever increasing base price.

Well at least all is not lost. The engine makes great power and is much more fuel efficient and the car does offer more room and luxury then the last one. If now BMW can just get a bug to start making its car lighter and more agile and great sounding.

I just hope the next M3 is more raw and lighter and not more porky and sort of dull.

[Rolitto]

After weeks of consecutive praise from different journalists and car experts, the new BMW M5 took their breath out and left the journalists in shock and awe.

Now in order to be seen in the spot light, that guy called Steve Sutcliffe wanted to create a controversy and decide the opposite of what other journalists came up with their decision.

I'm most probably sure that this guy is not educated and an absolute ignorant about cars. The Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG cannot even be compared to the new BMW M5. It's totally in a different category. The AMG stable has done nothing but tweaked the engine and installed it in an E-class with some minor modifications to suspension and gearbox.

Mercedes-Benz didn't take time to come up with the E63 AMG after launching the E-class, an additional prove to show that the E63 AMG hasn't spent enough experience to compete with the new BMW M5. Anyways time will tell when future Pro drivers lap the Nurburgring with both cars but I'm 99% sure the new BMW M5 is the best sports sedan ever built.

Verdict: Steve Sutcliffe is the loser of all 3.

[vladberca]

A light weight exhaust is a must for the new M5!
I'm curious about the Nurburgring nombers

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by JerezblackM3

What is wrong with BMW?!? Claiming they want to go light weight! F10 m5 is close to 2 tons, making it the heaviest m5. That just sucks! I have a feeling they will mess up the new m3 as well. BMW was always about handling before power. Now they have taken mercedes old route. It is like mercedes and BMW switching places. Nothing will ever be better than an e39 m5! Miss it so much

You forget that Alfa Romeo was the BMW of it's day...BMW had to market the "Ultimate Driving Machine" (I know this has nothing to do with Alfa Romeo, but i'm stating that BMW wasn't always known as the best in class).

Also, I suspect that Mercedes experience in force induction is aiding it, and will further make it better car in terms of longevity. AMG can make a high revving V12 engine for the Pagani Zonda and a TT V12 monster for the Huayra. Or they can make a torque monster for the SL65 AMG Black Series. They've always had the engine thing covered, and now they are finally getting the handling/suspension thing going...the game is starting to get real good...add in the CTS-V and the upcoming Lexus GS-F, M Division might need rethink how they gonna keep the fatboy M5 in shape before it's arteries clog (I suspect the hi-po upgrade is coming)...or is the 6 Series Gran Coupe the one we need to look out for?

[JerezblackM3]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

You forget that Alfa Romeo was the BMW of it's day...BMW had to market the "Ultimate Driving Machine" (I know this has nothing to do with Alfa Romeo, but i'm stating that BMW wasn't always known as the best in class).

Also, I suspect that Mercedes experience in force induction is aiding it, and will further make it better car in terms of longevity. AMG can make a high revving V12 engine for the Pagani Zonda and a TT V12 monster for the Huayra. Or they can make a torque monster for the SL65 AMG Black Series. They've always had the engine thing covered, and now they are finally getting the handling/suspension thing going...the game is starting to get real good...add in the CTS-V and the upcoming Lexus GS-F, M Division might need rethink how they gonna keep the fatboy M5 in shape before it's arteries clog (I suspect the hi-po upgrade is coming)...or is the 6 Series Gran Coupe the one we need to look out for?

I agree! Even Kia are starting to make good cars so it's clear the m5 competitors have all matured and may take the m5 much more muscle to win these days.

[Quasimodem]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The very first and the very last paragraph sum it up for me. Autocar feels like there should be more DRAMA, and because the M5 is less drama (..not to be confused with less performance), they chose the Merc. It's subjective rather than objective.

+1 They decided that the more racer-boy ego-reinforcing approach. Maybe the M5 would have won if it had if it had come with racing stripes. LOL

Anyway, I think BMW and Jaguar have the right approach here. Let the rich racer boys do their catless down pipe conversions on their own dime and I will take my sleeper M5. Besides, both the Jag and the M5 look better.

[fortressmaximus]

Anyone notice how both the Mercedes and BMW have 80 liter tanks, but the M5 has a 502 mile range compared with 394 for the Mercedes!?! That's significant to me