F1 2022: Brazilian GP - São Paulo (Nov 13)

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by NYG

Cool photo - went from being a fan to beating a driver he looked/looks up to.

Have you seen the names of his books ?

[NYG]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Have you seen the names of his books ?

Who do you think he learned "he turned into me" from?

EDIT: HeelToeShift beat me to it lmaooo

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Have you seen the names of his books ?

Those signed books must be long gone from his bookshelf

[lens]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

"so that's how you cheat, crash into people, and do it for a living". LOL

Rus has not cheated...yet, but he sure has the crashing into people part down.

Look at how he looked at Hamilton.

the look of "Keep smiling, I'm going to beat you one day for ignoring me you motherfuc-"

[NYG]

So there's a lot of information developing about Perez deliberately spinning out in Monaco qualifying. There's even videos with onboard telemetry showing him go full throttle mid-apex.

Not even sure what to think of this - it doesn't really make a lot of sense?

[G30M]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Those signed books must be long gone from his bookshelf

He never signed them

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by NYG

I don't think any of these guys drive to be a team player. I think some of them end up playing the team game because of the circumstances that they are in, whether it's lack of skill or lack of car.

Team 'mates' or team 'colleagues' or team 'members' ?

Niki Lauda had a very privileged position to witness the team dynamics - or lack of those - between team mates Hamilton and Rosberg in 2016. Have a listen to what this F1 legend said back in 2017, in his usual composed and straight-up fashion:
"They had no relation, which is always bad. So they were so bad, that they didn't even say "Hello!" to each other in the morning. (...) So they played all the tricks you can do, which I understood, I did myself too, but for the team it was pretty tiring." and "I think he [Rosberg] retired really because the pressure of Lewis was too hard for him to cope with in the future. Because Lewis is a tough cookie to drive for. And then he [Rosberg] won the race [2016 Abu Dhabi] with all these tricks Lewis holding back and the others [Vettel and Verstappen] coming. And it was tough for him [Rosberg] the whole year because Lewis was the world champion to get beaten. Yeah, it was hard work."

Abu Dhabi 2016 race:

Hamilton's "What am I supposed to do? Just sit there and let the dude [team mate Rosberg] come win the championship?" comment:

Rosberg criticizing Hamilton for complicating the crucial race for him:

Press-conference - Rosberg getting very emotional:

Hamilton-Rosberg incidents on track:

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Abu Dhabi 2016 race:

I remember this season vividly - this is the season where my opinion of Lewis the person drastically changed and why it confuses me how so many people thing he's some warrior of good moral virtue. He's a scumbag. I was so ecstatic when I heard Nico's wife radio to him that he won.

[John Tanglewood]

Popped in to say that regardless of Max "the driver" is, Max "the person" is still a little baby back b**** who I hope will get an ego check in the worst of ways. Karma is a two-way street!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by NYG

Who do you think he learned "I turned into myself" from?

EDIT: HeelToeShift beat me to it lmaooo

FTFY

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by NYG

I remember this season vividly - this is the season where my opinion of Lewis the person drastically changed and why it confuses me how so many people thing he's some warrior of good moral virtue. He's a scumbag. I was so ecstatic when I heard Nico's wife radio to him that he won.

Also remember that season very well. I was a huge Hamilton fan back then, absolutely despised Nico all through that season. I thought Nico was a sh*t teammate and drove too hard...etc. Come full circle, I now can't stand Lewis and Nico has proven to be a very down to earth guy. Very happy Nico was able to realize his dream and take down one of the best in the same equipment.

[GuidoK]

I think the Rosberg vs. Hamilton situation is no different than the Prost vs. Senna situation, or Vettel vs. Webber situation or Hamilton vs. Alonso situation.
If both deem themselves the #1 driver, then there are no rules on the track and shit happens.
And maybe that also happened early on this year between Max and Checo.
Now the rumour is that it's due to Monaco's q3 crash.
But what if Max back then requested to go first on track and RB sent Checo out first? And consequently the crash happens?
None of us knows exactly what happened, none of us where there, none of us knows even if Monaco was the reason.
But both the reaction of Max ("you know my stand on this") and the reaction of Checo ("now we know what kind of a guy he is"), points at friction between the two (and RB) and holding some grudge over something.
It has nothing to do with the points scored sunday by Max, but it has to do with something happening earlier this year or before from which Max apparently thought not solved sufficiently to give closure. That's when things like this happen.
It's up to team management to nip stuff like this in the bud so it doesn't escalates.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Also remember that season very well. I was a huge Hamilton fan back then, absolutely despised Nico all through that season. I thought Nico was a sh*t teammate and drove too hard...etc. Come full circle, I now can't stand Lewis and Nico has proven to be a very down to earth guy. Very happy Nico was able to realize his dream and take down one of the best in the same equipment.

At the end of the day, we've all got common grounds in these threads.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think the Rosberg vs. Hamilton situation is no different than the Prost vs. Senna situation, or Vettel vs. Webber situation or Hamilton vs. Alonso situation.
If both deem themselves the #1 driver, then there are no rules on the track and shit happens.
And maybe that also happened early on this year between Max and Checo.
Now the rumour is that it's due to Monaco's q3 crash.
But what if Max back then requested to go first on track and RB sent Checo out first? And consequently the crash happens?
None of us knows exactly what happened, none of us where there, none of us knows even if Monaco was the reason.
But both the reaction of Max ("you know my stand on this") and the reaction of Checo ("now we know what kind of a guy he is"), points at friction between the two (and RB) and holding some grudge over something.
It has nothing to do with the points scored sunday by Max, but it has to do with something happening earlier this year or before from which Max apparently thought not solved sufficiently to give closure. That's when things like this happen.
It's up to team management to nip stuff like this in the bud so it doesn't escalates.

I don't think this will ever be confirmed because this is the first I've read anything about Monaco, but if true, this whole situation is worse because VER held on to this grudge for something that happened months ago and I would be inclined to believe that the team would be aware of this. In that case, this should have been taken care of shortly after Monaco.

A Red Bull 1-2 in drivers standings should've been the sole focus and it's unfortunate that VER decided focus on his own grudge towards PER if this is all true.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

I don't think this will ever be confirmed because this is the first I've read anything about Monaco,

And it was said by Coronel and v. Haren.....
I don't know if you know these guys, but they are the biggest gossip making yellowpage journalists you can imagine (although Coronel is an accomplished driver with immense experience, but what you say and what you do on track are two different things imho )

We will never know what the deal was, but for sure it was about a grudge, that much is clear from both Max' and Checo's choice of words on the radio.
What Checo said during the post race interview that he didn't know why Max did that....that's a clear lie, otherwise he wouldn't have said previously on the radio "now we know what kind of a guy he is", as that clearly references to something in the past imho.
And the team was aware of it, Max said so on the radio. But apparenty both Horner and Marko did not solve it. In general my view is that no F1 driver really cares how good his teammate is.
You only get to F1 by either having a lot of money or be selfish on track 100% of the time. The only result that counts is your own result. And if your contract says you're the #1 driver you expect everyone to focus on that 100% of the time. Because the competition works in exactly the same way.

[Artemis]

Former rule 39.1. of the FIA regulations stipulated the prohibition of team orders interfering with a race result. That rule was abandoned in 2010 after the infamous "Fernando is faster than you" Ferrari incident during the 2010 Hockenheim race (see for example here). That prohibition had become rather toothless as teams would continue to bypass it with pre-race strategy briefings and coded radio messages. Ever since, team orders are allowed again. But team orders interfering with a race result never ceased sparking controversy, polarizing views, especially from a moral point of view (see more generally for example here). Cuts both ways: applauded by some as good, despised by others as bad.

Lots of fans often assimilate a driver's behavior on track with his persona as human being, ranging from 'nice guy' to 'nasty guy'. However, we all know that, although there may seem to be a lot of overlap, often the reality is way more complex. These are all highly competitive top athletes facing perils that could hurt or kill them, all capable of going into hyperfocused 'beast mode' in a very stressful environment requiring lots of multi-tasking and split-second decision-making, while millions of spectators are witnessing from their seats every move they make and every word they say or hear on track.

Now, about the wide-ranging spectrum of views on 'inverting track position' in favor of an outperformed team mate (either voluntarily or resulting from team orders):

• some will applaud that it's a noble or even altruistic gesture, compatible with the 'do the right thing' spirit, 'taking one for the team today', 'My Brother's Keeper' mentality;
• some will say that it's a respectable or loyal favor or reward for past or future endavors, a classy token of respect for the team mate and team;
• some will say that it's a calculated gesture or PR gesture, not as genuinely noble as it may seem, rather gnashing teeth for the driver ordered to give up the track position;
• some will say that it's an act that's incompatible with the 'let them race'/'may the best win' racing spirit; F1 drivers have spent countless hours fighting in several race categories during their youth to achieve their ultimate goal of getting an F1 seat (and possibly win F1 races or even F1 titles); lots of sacrifices were made by them and their families for the risky investment to become part of the motorsport elite; they train on simulators to achieve the best possible results; so it may be perceived by most of them as counter-intuitive to give up a track position for an outperformed team mate; they may experience it as unfair to be abruptly 'stopped in their tracks' by a team order or a plea made by an outperformed team mate;
• some will say that it's interfering (manipulating) with a race result as well as boosting the race statistics of the outperformed team mate in a rather questionable way ('race results with an asterisk').

Wake up and smell the coffee: F1 ain't no charity - it's a dog-eat-dog micro-cosmos, a big business ecosystem involving lots of money, prestige and ego. Tightened rules can contribute in limiting certain adverse behavior. But even within imposed boundaries of fair play, competition will remain mostly fierce and ruthless, action-packed with drama and intrigues. Not for the faint-hearted.

Whatever Verstappen would have done in the final lap of the 2022 Brazil race vis-à-vis his team mate Perez, criticism by those who dislike him was inevitable anyway, ranging from 'narcissist', 'greedy egoist' or 'disloyal and disobeying team member' (when holding track position) to 'hypocrite' or 'WDC points manipulator' (if he would have inverted track position). After crossing the chequered flag Verstappen radioed that the team clearly knew his stance in advance: "I told you already last time. You, guys, don't ask that [request to invert track position] again to me, OK ? Are we clear about that ? I gave my reasons and stand by it."

2002 Austria: official race-win for Schumacher in the history books after a controversial 'invert track position' team order by Ferrari to Barrichello. FIA handed Schumacher, Barrichello and Ferrari a $1 million fine for breaching the podium protocol, but not for the swap (Barrichello in 2012 about that incident: "It was eight laps of war. It’s very rare that I lose my temper, but I was screaming on the radio. I kept going right to the end, saying I would not let him [Schumacher] pass. That’s when they [Ferrari] said something about something much broader. It was not about the contract. I cannot tell you what they said, but it was a form of threat that made me think about re-thinking my life, because the great joy for me was driving."):

[ptack]

Interesting race from the get-go. Watching it unfold it looked like Max's move at turn one was just too aggressive. It looked like one of those moments when a driver sees red and believes he can take a position by forcing it. Sometimes that works if the other driver senses that you aren't backing down and gives way, but Hamilton didn't blink - though he was extremely lucky not get at least a puncture. What I imagine Red Bull has to review with Max was that he seemed to forget the game plan - medium tires=long first stint. He didn't need to force this issue that early in the race. He's got no one else to blame for this one. Not throwing a point or two to Checo also seemed quite immature. Even if he has good reasons not to like Checo, looking like a selfish jerk in front of the world is just stupid. Hopefully he'll figure this out. I've never been a Hamilton fan. I find him way too whiny, but I must say he's one of the most consistent drivers I've ever seen. If Max wants to equal Hamilton for championships he'll need to pick his moments more carefully.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by ptack

Interesting race from the get-go. Watching it unfold it looked like Max's move at turn one was just too aggressive. It looked like one of those moments when a driver sees red and believes he can take a position by forcing it. Sometimes that works if the other driver senses that you aren't backing down and gives way, but Hamilton didn't blink - though he was extremely lucky not get at least a puncture. What I imagine Red Bull has to review with Max was that he seemed to forget the game plan - medium tires=long first stint. He didn't need to force this issue that early in the race. He's got no one else to blame for this one. Not throwing a point or two to Checo also seemed quite immature. Even if he has good reasons not to like Checo, looking like a selfish jerk in front of the world is just stupid. Hopefully he'll figure this out. I've never been a Hamilton fan. I find him way too whiny, but I must say he's one of the most consistent drivers I've ever seen. If Max wants to equal Hamilton for championships he'll need to pick his moments more carefully.

Ham left absolutely no room. Not even 1/2 car width...this was literally the only time Max has had any type of incident this year whereas Ham always seems to be up to this type of behavior, and his teammate is even worse. What no one really saw until last year, and even more this year, was that under pressure, Ham makes a lot of mistakes. I guess when you actually have to race and you're really not that good it shows. When Max passed him at COTA Ham literally had no defense...since his only real defense is to usually put his car into someone.

Someone else posted the below so not my credit.

A little recap of Lewis season:
1. Contact with Alonso in Miami
2. Contact with Kevin in Spain
3. Contact with Ocon in Monaco
4. Contact with Alonso in Spa
5. Contact with Sainz in Zandvoort
6. Contact with Kevin in Monza
7. Contact with Sainz in Singapore
8. Pushing George of track Mexico and Miami
9. Contact with Verstappen in. Brazil.
As for Verstappen first contact in 2022 with Lewis.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by NYG

Lewis (...) He's a scumbag.

Originally Posted by John Tanglewood

Popped in to say that regardless of Max "the driver" is, Max "the person" is still a little baby back b**** who I hope will get an ego check in the worst of ways. Karma is a two-way street!

Come on folks, let's keep it civil.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Ham left absolutely no room. Not even 1/2 car width...this was literally the only time Max has had any type of incident this year whereas Ham always seems to be up to this type of behavior, and his teammate is even worse. What no one really saw until last year, and even more this year, was that under pressure, Ham makes a lot of mistakes. I guess when you actually have to race and you're really not that good it shows. When Max passed him at COTA Ham literally had no defense...since his only real defense is to usually put his car into someone.

The season Lewis lost the championship to Nico, they had a lot of contact. I remember Merc having to sit them down multiple times. At the time I blamed Nico, but now I question a lot of what went on that season.

[G30M]

I can actually easily reproduce that crash! I can be an f1 driver!

[Top speed]

https://youtube.com/shorts/E-0szkeL4TM?feature=share

Very similar incident with Max and ocon.